Podcast nation, what is good, uh, very special episode today? I i believe this man will have no need for an introduction. We have mark zuckerberg. I have to start practicing this mark. I've been in a bunch of meetings, saying meta uh.

You know just a lot of practice. You really threw me for a curveball yeah, i'm still getting used to it too. So uh obviously uh mark is at the hell and the head of meta, uh and um, and i'm really excited to be talking to him because i really want to get into the metaverse and the web3 world. Obviously, so much of this community is aware of uh of uh my involvement in the nft space and it's funny on the way here i realized.

Oh, my god, this interview is going to go similar to the joe namath interview. I had for all my my uh sports, nerd friends that listened to this podcast. When i had namethon, i literally asked him 14 questions that were so left field compared to the normal. Joe namath questions, for example, i asked him about why we lost the afc championship game and didn't go to super bowl four.

Instead of talking about super bowl three - and i realized that's - what's gon na happen here, because i have so many very selfish questions for mark about this web 3 world that i'm going to be selfish with my limited time with him so mark. First of all, it's good to see you and how are you it's good to see you too? It's um. You know it's been a while since we've done something like this, but i'm i'm glad to get a chance to do it. There's a lot of exciting stuff going on right now so - and i am you know, the reason why we come to you is is is because you do ask good questions so so let's go for it.

I'm curious what you got for me so mark. I think um, what's really funny in the meta pun intended it's nftnyc right now and i was saying to aj. Kevin rose a bunch of the old web 2.0 friends. How much this feels like the early south by southwest days and obviously the one of the first times we sat down was uh was after your keynote at south by just jamming talking about the space, and i remember the conversation vividly because i have a solid memory And because a lot of things we talked about about where this was all going was the topic and many of these things played out as somebody that i feel has always had a disproportionate understanding of communication consumer.

You know human behavior um. Give me your first hot. Take, i know, you've had this big, you know uh announcement the other day. What is your just kind of macro thesis of the web3 place, we're going whether it's the metaverse, the nft stuff, like what are we on the precipitous of and how similar is it to the time where, right before facebook uh was launched, yeah, so the the metaverse To me today feels like the next frontier in social connection, in much the same way that social networking did when i was getting started back in 2004, and you know that's a big reason why we wanted to change the the brand of the company.

Is that you know today, i think most people think about us as a social media company, but in our dna you know we're a technology company that builds all kinds of different technology to help people connect and tries to advance human connection. And, of course, social media is one important part of that, but i think increasingly it's going to be about building platforms and experiences that deliver this sense of presence like you're right there with another person. So there's, of course, all the virtual and augmented reality. Parts of that and there's the hardware and i'm really excited about that - the work that we've been - i mean - we've been working on that for seven years now at this point, so that's making a lot of progress um, but i think some of the experiences are starting To come together too, so you know, we've started to release horizon and you know work rooms and, and some of these experiences where you can feel like you're present with someone in a place um, it's just pretty crazy to see how um how that's taking off - and It's you know, it's not just games.

You know, games, i think, is the the natural starting point, but beyond that um we're starting to see at this point that social interaction and just hanging out is starting to become the the biggest way that people spend time on these platforms. That kind of makes sense when you say these platforms are you speaking specifically in the behavior, seeing of people innocuous, yeah yeah on on yeah. You know: let's, let's, let's, let's actually go right there, because you said something in there and i hope the audience is listening. Seven years right - and i remember like yesterday - you uh acquiring a meta acquiring meta acquiring oculus - oh always, tough, to know how to refer to it.

In the past yeah i'm gon na i'm gon na use both so stick with me. Um the oculus purchase was really interesting because the instagram purchase, which i was really kind of caught up in because of some of the content. I was making the the attempt on snap all of those made a ton of sense, because you were executing on the thing that i've always thought you had, which is where's the current attention. How do we play within that space? The oculus one was weird for me because i was like ooh that's far away.

Why did he do that? Um, seven years in metaverse, people are just now starting to kind of get going. What was the thinking of that? Like why'd? You do that. Well, i mean a lot of. It is just that you know we spend most of our days building social apps, that you use on a little phone right and you know as as powerful as that is you have your phone with you all the time? It's also pretty limiting right you're, not delivering an experience where you can really feel like you're with another person and um in a lot of ways.

That's that's sort of the ultimate dream of of building these digital social experiences is actually being able to make it so that people can feel like they're there together and doing something together and then kind of collaborating and and just no technology that we have today can Deliver that so you know, we've um, you know, we've seen this progression where you know when i, when i started the company it was, you know, people primarily. The internet was primarily about text right, so people took text into a into a computer. Then we got phones that had cameras, so the internet became a lot more visual and mobile, and over the last few years, um internet connections have gotten a lot better for everyone. So now video is really the primary way that we share experiences.

So you have this progression from text to photos to videos, connection and expression. Ourselves keeps on getting more natural and immersive, but that's not the end of the line. Right, there's going to be something after video and it's going to be much more immersive and it's going to be something that that we can do throughout the day. So you'll have virtual reality for when you want to go into a really immersive zone.

You'll have augmented reality to have holograms, you know, so you can imagine a version of this conversation. You know three or five years from now where, instead of doing this um, you know over video um. You know you're a hologram here in my living room or i'm a hologram in in your living room. Do you think - and i you know i've watched you talk in the past and i know how i communicate this because it's always so challenging is your intuition that it is three to five years from now that that is like that the tech between 5g, which is An important step between some of the stuff you're doing and other people, other companies and entrepreneurs are doing.

Do you think we can? Actually? I saw something i think in my feed, where you were fencing with somebody as a part of the announcement which looked wild because it was on some obi-wan kenobi right like like right like i was like. Oh my god, it's it's happening is. That is that. Do you think three to five is a a solid guess? Is that optimistic? So talk to me about that? So i think you want to break it down to there's the virtual reality side and the augmented reality side yep vr is is here right, i think quest was really the form factor that was necessary to make it mainstream quest.

Two, i think, was a meaningful step beyond that and is, is um is kind of the first mainstream hit that we've had um. So many millions you know i don't know, i don't know i don't. I don't know what you're allowed to share or not so don't feel, feel comfortable. Tell me you can't.

Is there public, like i'm, just trying to learn how you don't have a public number yet, but it's, but it is um. You know what i can say is it's it's it's many millions and it's um and it's multiple times more than quest one which, which is it feels it feels that way. Yeah yeah yeah, so that'll keep on improving and we'll keep on shipping new versions of that um. So there are a lot of great experiences there and it's been really cool to see the use cases they're broadened out from games to social to now having things around fitness right.

There's a lot of that that caught my radar, that there was a lot more people paying for fitness apps in quest than i had any clue of. Oh yeah yeah, i mean well think about it. I mean you, can you know it's? It think it's kind of like the peloton model, where you know it's um, you know, but instead of having a bike or a treadmill, you just have your 300 headset. You can take it with you anywhere.

You want you can do boxing or dancing or different kinds of cardio um. It's pretty awesome, so i think that that'll that'll go for a while and get extended a lot. So there are all these different use cases in vr when, when you're talking about the the fencing video that i showed with lee kiefer um in the hologram that you're going to need, augmented reality, glasses and that's a that's a harder problem, because um first you're inventing A completely new optical stack right, so you're, not just using normal screens and kind of building an architecture around that, which is how virtual reality is sort of work to date. Um you need to design a projector and a set of wave guides.

So that way you can have glasses that look normal and you can see through them. So that's there's a lot of interesting science and engineering there, but for augmented reality. If you're going to wear it throughout the day, it's just a lot more important that the form factor is like normal. Looking glasses right, i mean virtual reality.

Do you think i'm sorry to interrupt? Do you think, by the time it hits scale that there's a chance that this is a contact lens game, not a cumbersome overlay like a glasses or a thick like how what's your take on that? Is that too hard i mean some people are working on that. I think that that's quite a bit further off just because you know think about it. It's like whatever is projecting the image needs to have an internet connection. It needs to be powered right.

So so i mean i've seen some people have a model of a contact lens that has a little projector, that's sort of like in front of your pupil and your blind spot and it can project something in. But then how are you going to kind of have that sync with the whole rest of the internet and be powered throughout the day um? What if i put five? What if i swallowed a 5g pill, i don't know, let's say 20 years from now. I think that that might be yeah but but ar glasses. I think we're going to start seeing things that look like um.

You know normal looking glasses, but that can project holograms into the world um. You know within the next five years. Um. You know i mean i think that that's that's a somewhat conservative estimate did pokemon go going back five years, ironically.

Was that something you watched carefully because i was like holy. This is now happening. People are pulling off on this highway, jumping into the woods to find a pikachu. I would have lost i'm pretty good at this game too, but i would have lost this bet, which was after that was such a smash hit through the phone.

The fact that we're here five years later - and there has not been another significant ar phone execution of that scale - surprising to me - what's your take on that yeah? Well, i think pokemon go is it. It was interesting and it's a it's a real hit and it it is an interesting phenomenon, but it's i consider it to be more of a location-based game than an augmented reality game. The fact that that it shows that you kind of look at it through your camera um, i think, is somewhat incidental. I think the core mechanic is that you're going to a place um, and so you could do that with augmented reality or not.

But there certainly is going to be a whole class of experiences that are like that. But in terms of things that that really kind of augment reality, i think you have um. You know filters face filters, different effects like that um, like what you see in instagram and and snapchat. I think that's a that's a real thing.

That's that's, i think, is real, augmented reality, and certainly i think that there's going to be a lot more opportunity there once you get to um these real looking glasses that can that can put holograms in the world so yeah i mean i. I would hope that by the middle of this decade we can have something that's sort of like that fencing um clip that i showed now. The other issue on that is. You need haptics right so that way when you, when your sword hits the hologram sword um, you get a sense of feeling from that.

So that's a whole interesting other area of research and i'm not sure exactly where that will be by the middle of this decade. But that's another thing that we're working on, because it's it's clearly an important part of the whole picture is you need to be able to um? You know whether you're playing basketball or giving someone a high, five or shaking their hand, you want to be able to get a sense of pressure back um and that that i think, is just going to be an important part of the whole thing too mark. When you, when you make a move like this, to get the organization to this next place, you know, i assume, because i think about when i do things oftentimes it's more for my team internally than for the world like if they don't understand where i'm trying to Take vayner or my stuff, then i've got no shot. Was that a thought about this in a lot of ways of like hey, i got ta make sure because you're a massive company now like is this like.

I need to give everybody a north star internally of like look. No, no. This is what we're doing it's, not just refining the algo or a filter on insta or something of that nature. Yeah i mean you get this because i mean you're running a a company here and - and you know it's like a lot of this is - is really just about uh, making sure that our team knows what we're doing right, i mean running a company is about setting Prioritization and principles for where you want to go and um, and i do think that it's the case that a lot of times the most effective way to communicate to the organization, a level of commitment to something is to go, say it externally.

Right now, people know that you're serious so um, so we've been talking about this internally for many years right i mean: we've been working on these vr devices for for seven years, um we've just sort of steadily ramped up the investment um to the point where now In 2021, we're investing 10 billion dollars more than 10 billion dollars in this. So it's um. It's still not the biggest part of what we do, but it's it's very meaningful. I think that there, you know you'd be hard-pressed to find any other organization.

That cares as much about this and is putting as much energy into to building all these different parts of the future and what i think you get for, that is that meta has become the premier place, that if you care about these problems, you want to go Work on them right, so, whether that's vr we're building the best devices ar i think we're the furthest ahead in terms of actually building the consumer, um glass form factor and all the different research around that you know you mention all any of the other problems around There, whether it's haptics um, you know or a lot of the software parts of this where people can interact um, you know it's we're going to be the the place where you can build all these different parts of the metaverse experience and then also weave them into Facebook and instagram, and what's up that's going to be pretty long, you said something to really caught my attention. Obviously, the far majority of people - almost everybody who's listening to this, that runs a company - is not going to be running a company of your scale, but what you said there was not only for your team, but did i hear the undertone there of the fact that You put out such a public commitment to this. You see as a recruiting vehicle to the best engineers in the game in this space yeah. Well, look.

I just think that when you plant a flag and say that you're going to go, do something you get haters and criticism, but you also get the people who actually care about that thing and want to make it uh happen are attracted to the people who, i Think have the courage to go say i'm going to go. Make this happen, even though it's really far off. So i think that all these things are there. There are pros and cons to them, um and and there's a lot of complexity to manage, but i think that this is true, no matter what size organization you're you're at is that you know having the um the willingness to just go say: hey here's.

What i want to go build um, i think, certainly creates the self-selection dynamic where, when you say, here's who i am and what i want to go do then you get people who want to want to share that, and what i've found in in my career is That it's better to not be timid about that right and to not um. You know pretend that you're something that you're not um to try to appease critics. I think you know the more that you can just be honest to who you are and what you want to go. Do i think, you'll you'll kind of get the right people to join your team.

You'll get the right investors, you'll, get the right partners and i think that's kind of how you how you move forward talk to now, i'm going crazy selfish. I reference you and the company a ton in my content over the last decade. As my macro thesis understand, where the attention is, it matters so much and i often reference your m a that uh behavior. Can you just give me because i want to know for myself the insight on the instagram deal, the whatsapp deal, i'm gon na leave oculus off, because that was like.

I mean i want to maybe come back to it in a little bit, given the macro metaverse combo, but specifically instagram and whatsapp, which i thought were really of the moment deals. You know, i don't know. If the corporation acknowledges the attempt towards snapchat, it was well, it was well talked about. I don't know the truth or not truth to it, but and again, when i heard it or when it was reported, i was like there.

He is again he's 100 right he's on it again. Like you know, tick tock must have must have been potentially a very different thing, given the china-based guy and the complications like but like it like. I i i'll be very honest. Every day, when i saw musically way back, i'm like facebook's gon na make a play.

Facebook's gon na make a play right like what is am. I am i right that that is a big tenor of how you guys have looked at the world, be what's that about yeah um. So there are a lot of different these kind of core social interactions that that people have in these apps that that um, the different apps have invented over time, and i'm proud that that we've invented a bunch of them um. You know going back to you know some of the core dynamics around being able to communicate with people in your college being like we were the first that built news feed.

That's the core social api world by the way on the record for the youngsters, i'm sorry to interrupt that by the way i apologize by the way, by the way for all the youngsters listening right now, when facebook changed from you going to somebody's wall and leaving A comment to this news: feed it was carnage, the number one page or group or whatever you guys called it back then was bring back the wall or whatever like mark. Can you speak to that? Real, quick, just go back to your. You know young young days like when you guys made that move the community within forget. Nobody was even paying attention to you in the mainstream, all that stuff.

Now within the world, immediately people lost their mind, and now that is the core way. Every social network was built in yeah, i mean look, i think when sometimes when you invent these things, it's um, you know i mean they can be disruptive and i think you just kind of need to have the commitment to to see it through, but you know Going back to your point about about some of these other companies, you know it's like. There was a kernel with instagram and with whatsapp, um and and also with with companies like um like snapchat. I mean, i think, that they've, you know they they created something that i think is really special and is awesome um, where i just looked at that, and i was like all right - okay, there, there is something you know.

I think people often tend to look at these social apps and think that they're frivolous right early on and i think that they're, like these, these dynamics aren't important and um. You know, oh, it's filtered photos or or oh it's um. You know disappearing photos or or whatever it is, but or it's only or it's only for college kids yeah i mean when we had that you know through our ipo and after when, when our you know when we were having a lot of business struggles, but it's Um, but you know i kind of looked at those and i was like hey. I think i think that there's something that's important here.

I think the world is probably underestimating this, and i also think that we have the skills as a company to go grow. These things to reach more than a billion people around the world and because we've done that with the core facebook experience, and i think that there's two skills there there's the there's sort of the building the social experience and then there's the helping to ramp up a Network around that, and that's that i think, is also a core competence. So you know i don't know what would have happened with instagram. You know if we hadn't bought it.

I don't think it's guaranteed that it would have grown to be as big as it is. Should i assume, because i'm a nerd when it comes to watching business, behavior that much like what you're doing with metaverse now, which i think is the macro move of that and that like in between now and and that scaled world, the companies that have the kernels? That do best in the attention graph, whether that's in the metaverse video, so you know picture like that, will always be a core focus. Yeah absolutely i mean, i think, that's a key thing with this rebrand to meta. Is it's not like now we're not focused on social media, i mean that's going to be the bread and butter of what we do.

That's the the core thing um and our work to build. The metaverse encompasses both building social experiences and building these future platforms. Like um vr and ar it's got to be both right, we have to weave all these new technologies through these social apps, and you know, because you want to be able to jump into the metaverse and a 3d experience from your instagram feed right. So you see your friend at a concert um.

You know we showed this as part of the keynote presentation just dive in and you know, maybe be a hologram at the concert. But but you a lot of the discovery around that is going to happen through the core social platforms. So yeah that's going to continue to be a focus, um we're going to keep on on focusing on growing and building apps and adding more social mechanics around that. I think there's a lot more to invent there and then i think that there's this next set of platforms right where you know i just you know one of the things that i reflect on a lot is you know social media kind of grew up with the Smartphone facebook got, i started in 2004 um, i think apple was probably already working on their iphone design by then it came out in 2007., so you know we didn't really get to shape what the smartphone was.

No, you know we built a lot of the most used experiences for it, but but it sort of co-it grew at the same time, and because of that, i feel like the smartphone sort of grew in a way that it's somewhat limiting in terms of the the Type of social experiences that you could have, i feel like there's a lot of things that i would love to build, that that we can't build because we're we're kind of constrained into this. You know little rectangle and policies that some other companies set. So that's part of for me why i have so much passion about helping to bring about this next platform shift and accelerating it, because i think the sooner we get to virtual and augmented reality, um, the better, the more magical. These social experiences are gon na be and, and i just think, um you know, our platforms should be designed around people interacting with each other.

I think that's like how we process the world as people and um, and that's just not how phones are designed they're designed around apps today yeah, but i think you know going back to your first question about um nfts and web 3 um. I think the atomic unit in the metaverse is going to be about um, you and and and kind of the your stuff and your friends and your connection right. So you're gon na you're gon na have your avatar and you're gon na have your digital clothing and your digital tools, and unlike apps today, um that are kind of all designed to be a little bit siloed and you have to do all this extra work. To get them to work together in the metaverse, i think it's going to be fundamentally more interoperable, where your your fundamental experience is that you are embodied in your your identity, your digital avatar, all your stuff, and i think, as a you know, as a user of This, your natural expectation, is going to be that you can bring all your stuff in between all these experiences very seamlessly.

So i think that that's going to be really exciting. I just want to help bring that about as soon as possible mark question. I've been dying to ask you when you first look, i mean you probably given, and maybe i'm making assumptions so you'll speak to it. Obviously there was that 2017 wave with cryptokitties we started seeing that early kind of wave of you know nfts right.

That was like kind of like the thing that punks did not hit my radar, but crypto kitties did in 17. um and obviously now this has been the year of nfts the way we know them, whether it's board ape what i do with b friends, obviously punks And many cool cats - many many many projects, one of the reasons it was very easy for me when i really dug in late last year to believe in this was actually because of farmville on facebook. You know when i there was two things that happened to me during that era: farm bill on facebook - oh, my god, people are buying these digital sheep because they want the social currency to show their friends they're good at it, and then zay frank. I don't remember.

I don't know if you remember zay, frank, remember, zay, frank who's, one of the first video bloggers. He had people buy virtual ducks as little tip jars and have their name hover over it and those were the first times i was like. Oh, my god, people are gon na buy virtual things virtual currency in my book. Thank you economy.

I talk a lot about virtual currency in 2010-11. Was it natural for you to believe in what's happening right now with nfts because of the things like farmville that happened on your platform? Well, i've always been a pretty big believer in virtual goods. So i think from that perspective yeah, but i think a lot of the the magic of um of nfts and a lot of the web 3 work is that it's designed in a way to be fundamentally interoperable. So i think that that's gon na be really important, because it'll help break down these silos between different apps and make it so that all your stuff can be just um.

You know more portable between these different experiences, which i think increasingly is what people are going to expect um. But so i i think that that's going to be a big part for creators of making it really worth investing in, because you know if you're, if you're designing a digital good for um for farmville and it only works within there then, like i don't know, i Mean it's. You know you kind of get to the point where most of the people are going to be building that yeah to your point here: here's the world we live in now, you're, a young kid and you're in minecraft or roblox. You grow up and you want to go to fortnight all that money you invested is kind of stuck in there in the world that you're talking about right now, the the roblox and minecraft of the future, when you're done with that you're just gon na trade, it For your fortnight stuff you're going to trade, the four night stuff or sell it, it's all going to be in that one global ecosystem yeah.

I mean the analogy that i that i like to think about. Is you know you? I i like your knicks hoodie, but it's you know it's imagine if you bought a jersey and you could only use it in the sports arena that when, where you bought it right, it's like that. Would that would be sort of lame and it would um reduce the value of buying it right so um, because you know who's gon na want to buy something if they can only use it in. In that arena i mean some people would, but but a fraction of the number of people who would want to buy it if they could use it in all these different places.

And then, if the amount of commerce is going to be less than that's going to attract fewer creators, so i think having it be, more interoperable is going to be key to making the whole thing so dynamic. What's interesting about that in a much more interesting human behavior way, is people will wear it to your point? It's limited. What's also interesting is the clout the equity. The social currency carries more weight from a tribalism behavior standpoint in madison square garden, which i'm looking at right now than it does outside, though it has tremendous value outside.

What i'm incredibly interested in is the following. Obviously, i don't remember if it was twitter, i think it was twitter, who did the blue check mark first right, the verification we we've now lived through a decade where verified accounts following counts: social equity through visualization, we've seen it with followers and ver and verified accounts Right, the extremity of the nft space is going to be even greater for what that means. It's almost like our world is all about to become the fashion industry, because we communicate so much through what we wear. The digital version of that is going to have an incredible impact on society.

Oh totally, i mean, i think, if we're all spending a lot more time in the metaverse, then i think we're going to care a lot about our representation of our identity and we're going to want different outfits and um. I don't know, maybe everyone accept me. I just wear the same thing, but it's um, but did you steal that from steve jobs are you hard-hitting question? Did you steal wearing the same thing every day from steve jobs? I don't think so. I i just think i was maybe a little lazy and then like had some kind of um, some some good articulation of like oh yeah.

This is just about saving mental energy, but i i think um there's never really a um, but you know, what's funny i'll, be honest with you. I actually think that's the punch line you consciously or subconsciously made that decision to represent yourself, and i think that going digital is going to be extraordinary yeah. I really do. I really think that people are grossly underestimating that almost all the things we've been doing are about to get more visual, more collateralized, more obvious right, like i don't think a lot of people realize why they bought a rolex.

I really don't. I don't think a lot of people realize like. I don't think i over think why, at 45 years old, i look like i'm 13 right now right like there's a lot going on in that, and i think that when it hits digital, it becomes more obvious. I think a lot of people's conversation about what's going on on digital is actually just showing us what we are much more than anything else, and so i think, as we go into the realm of consumerism, is insane right like when you think about how much people Buy things to communicate that going digital and being so in our faces, because so many of these things sit in our homes, where 99 of our social graph never sees it.

That going to a full 100 is crazy, yeah, but i think you're, hitting on a number of important pieces here i mean first, a lot of people think about this is as kind of commerce, and i think a lot of it is actually really expression, which is The core social dynamics, so the intersection between that expression and your identity and then the commerce around that, especially if we can get it to be interoperable. So it's a more fluid market, i think, is just going to be a really big deal, much bigger than i think people people sort of internalize today. The other thing that i think is just um, you know really refreshing and insightful to hear you talk about, is all the lessons from you know some of the previous rounds of development. You know i hadn't really thought before you raised it about.

You know some of the the early farmville experiences or or some of the stuff from from a decade ago, but but i think you're right that there is a clear through line right both between the the kind of social interactions that people have um and the types Of commerce - and you know obviously there's more technology now that um that can make it more interoperable and that can um. You know, give people more rights over the goods that they have, and you know on the ar and vr side making it. So people can feel a more realistic sense of connection but um, but i think you're right that a lot of these concepts are not fundamentally new they're sort of the next iteration on on kind of um, just dynamics that are evergreen and that are just always going To be, and always have been very important to people in terms of how we connect and interact with you, it's it's my take on what happened when you were inventing, i'm, like. Oh people put their kids school on their back of their windshield to flex my kids going to harvard i might drop out, but you know like like that's what they would do right like they would literally, like we've, been doing all these same things, digital's just exposing Truths and scaling truths and i think the new frontier of 3.0 metaverse is going to take us to a completely different place that i do think.

Web 2 gave us a slight preview to yeah. I agree. I agree. Mark uh since we'll have a couple.

More minutes. Have you thought, do you own any nfts? Have you thought about buying any like, i feel like you're, going more platforms. Obviously you, as the executive is platform side metaverse. That makes so much sense.

It's kind of like leapfrogging. I understand that cold, especially the hardware software dynamic that i think you've been through the last 15 years, makes all the sense to me in the world. How about you, the human being? Have you like? Were you a collector? Were you a comic book like? Did you collect as a kid i so i i was pretty into baseball cards and that that um yeah, so i had that um, you know maybe a few comic books, but more for entertainment than collection, the baseball cards i mean i was really into that, especially In baseball, i think it's really like the um, the nerds game, yeah, it's math, i mean i get it. You love that math mark i mean.

Let's call it spade a spade, but but have you jumped into nft land yet yeah? Well, look i mean i try to use all this stuff right, i mean so by the way real, quick, i'm sort of interrupt. I know i've been i'm excited. I got ta give you this shout out, because this is back to the one thing i've always connected with you on using all this stuff. I don't know if you remember this, but when chat roulette came out which obviously had a 45 minute cycle, because at first it was brilliant and then it got weird real fast, literally the first night i had multiple people take screenshots, because you were because i was Early on fan pages - and you were uh - you were on my fan page on facebook and people connected on interests, and you were literally there and facebook was already a real company and you were like running a big company and sure enough at very late into the Night, you are literally clicking around meeting people randomly you got it.

You got to use the stuff firsthand right. It's tough to just have someone explain to you um or like write a you know, presentation about what it's like i mean so i've had some pretty funny experiences over the years trying to use different different social products um. You know i mean, like probably one of the one of the funnier ones. I think is you know at some point i decided that i really needed to understand how dating apps worked, and at this point i was like you know, i've been dating priscilla for a long time or we maybe haven't been married already yeah.

So i was like look priscilla, it's like just so. You know like i'm, going to i'm going to um sign up for some dating somebody apps, and we can do this together. Tinder is the greatest thing i could ever imagine. Well, i i think i was on one um.

It was called coffee meets bagel, they give you one more today, yeah and - and i got this match and it was priscilla's friend and she was getting dinner with her the next night and i was like all right. I'm like priscilla, just you know like this, this this um, this came up heads up, but but no look i mean. I just believe that if you want to be in the game building stuff yeah, you really should remain curious and and keep using all this. So yeah i mean on on all the crypto work i mean i try to try to kind of be involved and and um and experience that i think there's a lot of parts of the experience today that are um.

You know still pretty early right and you know i i hesitate to say something um. You know pejorative like like broken, because i think it's you know. I have much more of the attitude of it's just not as great yet as it will be in the future. Um, that's true, i'm sure some people, you know they look at something and they're like.

Oh, this isn't good, but i think you know part of the art of the whole thing is just figuring out when something they're they're going to be awesome. They're, not they're, not historians. Of course, web 3 doesn't work as well as web 2. 15 years later, like shopping carts in 1996, took three minutes to buy something.

People forget that people forget the cuckoo to even get on the internet, like people forget and they're, not historians, and i think that's where they can learn mark. Thank you so much for your time. I know you're busy. I appreciate you being on the podcast happy to do it all right catch you soon.

You.