I have a motto: higher, fast, Fire faster, promote fastest and yet I'll be honest here and very vulnerable I struggle to play that course because for me personally, the emotion of hurting someone trumps the financial impact of it and where I was able to mature into later in my life was understanding the ramifications it was having on everyone else. It wasn't about me I Really do think a lot of people struggle with the emotional baggage of hurting someone Vayner Nation how are you New episode of the Podcast Interviewing some of the most interesting people in the world I'm excited to do an original show I know we take a lot of clippings for my Keynotes and my runarounds. uh I'm in extra good mood because Drock is filming today and some old good feelings I'm also extremely excited because we have a a tremendous guest today that I think a lot of you have been affected by and uh and I always think that's super cool when there's uh, someone who's uh, invented or impacted us in a big way and so I'm going to let Yuri uh uh introduce himself uh and tell you who he is and then we're gonna get into a series of questions and uh, touch on a bunch of subjects here. So Yuri how are you my friend? Thank you I'm awesome.

Um so as you said, my name is Uhuri Levine I'm co-founder of Waze which I assume many people use around the globe actually about a billion you know so if movie which is another billion users around the globe. In author of the book fall in love with the problem, not the solution? Yes I See you, You know For people that are listening it is. uh, wearing a t-shirt right now, fall in love with the problem, not the solution. You've been a co-founder in two companies that have a billion people using it, which is just outrageous.

Um, would you argue that your passion for the statement that you just made a is the reason you've been able to accomplish being involved in those kind of products? Because obviously you're solving a major problem to get that level of usage? and then number two if you may. When do you think you started falling in love with the problem? Not the solution? Was that something God given? Was that something you were around as a child who influenced you? How did you stumble on that concept? So at the end of the day I found myself attracted to problems in a way that that I get frustrated and I ask myself is that So is that the only way that can be done and I try to figure out a solution. But over the years what I've learned is that way before you can figure out a solution, what you really want to do is make sure that this problem is actually applying to a lot of people, right? So think of a problem, a big problem, something that's worth solving and then ask yourself. So who has this problem Now if you happen to be the only person on the planet with this problem, then I would say you know what, Go to a shrink.

It's way cheaper than building. but if a lot of people have this problem, what you want to do next is actually go and speak with those people and understand their perception of the problem. If they're going to Echo back the problem to you, then this is actually a very powerful State a starting point because what will happen is that number one, you will fall in love with the problem. Number two, you feel like they are sending you on a mission to actually address that.

and when you are in love with the problem, the problem is going to serve as the north star of your journey, which is going to make your journey faster and easier because there will be less deviation of that and that one. is that the story that you're gonna tell way more compelling. Just imagine that. We will be here in 2007 and I will tell you I'm going to build an AI crowdsource based navigation system and you're going to say yeah.

Really interesting, but you don't care if I will tell you I'm going to help you to avoid traffic jams and this is the power of a problem approach or falling in love with the problem, that your story is way more compelling, the likelihood of being successful is way more. and at the end of the day, what we really want as entrepreneurs is to create value. If you solve a problem, you create value, you know when tell. Actually let's take us all the way back because I have a funny feeling.

We have some similarities in our Uh and our origin stories. where were you born I was born in Tel Aviv and I was born and raised here in Israel Um and uh um and ended up to be uh, you know as a teenager and a travel maker. Pretty smart one but a troublemaker and this turns out to be one of the things that you don't take anything for granted right? And so people would think of you as a pick or or someone that is asking annoying and challenging questions. um and um and I grew up in the house that was encouraged me to discover right? So so if I would come to my dad with a crazy idea he would say uh, why don't you give it a try right he would know that it's not going to work but he would say encourage me to try and and there was no judgment if if it didn't work out because that was the expectation.

But the discovery that you fail and get up and nothing happened is actually very powerful because it's gonna take you throughout your entire life and basically saying you know what you to that point do you feel that micro failures in your youth became foundational to your professional success? Absolutely Absolutely. And for a second I would say we as parents, the most important thing that we would like to teach our kids is to fail. The reason would you? Would you agree with me that we've gone completely the other way in the last 25 years? Absolutely. It looks like it, right? So so I You know I'm trying to encourage my kids to fail and to expand their boundary and get out of their comfort zone and discover what is it that is going to make them happy right then because at the end of the day you don't know, right? I don't know what's going to make my kids happy.

No one knows, they don't need to find out right? And the best way to find out is actually go to different places and try to find out. But and so this turns out to be um, very very important. And I think that as a society we miss that. we have huge fear of failure that is being you know, encourage.

The fear of failure is being encouraged right? Just imagine what's going to happen if you if you're gonna fail test right? If you're gonna bring the F I mean I I Could not agree with you more. All my D's and F's in school are foundational to my happiness, my lack of anxiety, and my professional success. Period. Yeah, not all of them, but most of them.

Yeah, yeah. I mean I got A's and Jim because I like sports, but other than that, it looks pretty ugly right there you're When did you? when did you think you had? did you? You know we grew up in a generation You: how old are you my friend? I'm 58. you look great. So I'm 47.

you and I grew up in a generation where entrepreneurship wasn't almost even a word. it was. You know, it wasn't the culture that we have today. Did you sense that you had that? Spirit Did you have a knowledge of what you could do? Did you grow up in an entrepreneurial household? Were your folks entrepreneurs? or was it something you discovered later in life? So uh, my dad was an entrepreneur.

You know, he built factories. You know this is the partnership of the previous century and my mom was a teacher and a professor at the University and I ended up to be a little bit of both, right? So I'm not one in, but also a teacher On the other hand, and this is by the way why I wrote this book I feel equally rewarded when I built stuff myself or I guide someone to build it and the result is that I have about 10 different startups that I'm mentoring the CEO and coaching them and and helping them to become more successful And the book is all about that right is sharing my know-how that will help other people to become more successful. What was the most challenging thing in writing the book starting? How long did you debate it before you started it? So so I think that the foundations of the book was uh, was laid back in 2016 when I actually did uh, an MBA uh seminar for building startups and I ended up with pretty much most of the content and then I told myself wait a minute I actually have your accountant for writing a book um and it was later until my mom told me that I should be writing a book which was the second trigger for that. Yeah, with uh, Kovid that um, you know I found myself stuck at home.

before that, I was traveling quite a lot and going to you know, multiple conferences and meeting a lot of people. and then I was ended up to be stuck at home and I realized that now I have the time in with the help of uh Diva Real? that was um, really the project managerian, the co-editor and the the you know the partner of writing this book. Um, we spent about a year writing it and this is a discovery process at the beginning. Until you realize okay, this is how it's going to work right? and um and then you end up with uh, writing the book and realizing that um, you just move one phase in the journey.

Now you need to promote the book and make sure that actually a lot of people are reading the book because otherwise the impact is going to be minimal. and I want a bigger impact I want At the end of the day, my purpose my mission is to create value. So the more people reading the book The more value that they create and I feel you know, rewarded. And and that's what makes you allocate the work of doing podcasts like this because you want as much exposure as possible.

Exactly good for you. Talk to me about the origins of Waze I Just think that so many people here I'm like I Gen I actually don't know it. so I'm like excited my darn self to hear what's about to come out of your mouth. How did this company that? really you know you talk about, forget about, you know I love how you said storytelling because that shows the marketer in you.

you know AI you know mapping? fine I'm gonna save you time, you know I'm Gonna Save You to avoid traffic. even better story and then you've got Maniacs like me. Hey, I'll save you four minutes in a day I'll pay anything for those four minutes. which is why I was obsessed with ways the second it came out.

Um, how in the world did that company start? So so the magic of ways is that way is crowdsource everything right? There is no data coming from anyone else except the drivers so we crowdsource all the drivers together and we you know based on where you are and how fast you're done you're going. We know exactly where traffic jams are if you report that there is a speed cam which is equally important as be as um as uh I'm dry as finding out or avoiding traffic jams. um it's uh, it's reported by other drivers in the map itself is being generated by the drivers as they drive right. If you drive somewhere then I know that it's drivable.

Um, the idea came to my mind back in 2006 when we were um, as a family. we were at a family gathering up. The northern part of Israelis Israel is a small place. it's about the same size as a Massachusetts right? and um and we were like 10 cars there and when it was the end of the weekend we drove home.

We at the time had four little kids so it took us longer to arrange everyone and gather everyone, put them back into the car and everyone already left and and there were back then two routes, two alternative routes going from the northern part of Israel back to Tel Aviv and I Um, called up all of the other cars and asked them how is traffic like on your path and what? I found out is that in one route it's actually pretty okay and the other one It was really crowded and I realized that what I really need is someone ahead of me on the road to tell me what's going on. That was an idea that I was trying to promote Um with different partners and it didn't work out until 2007 when I met my other co-founder um Amira Nahoud and Um and we actually share the vision. Now what it turns out is that the hood was already in a process of building a prototype of Um crowdsourcing the map data which was mandatory part of that and then we decided that this is what we're going to build. We're going to build ways and we're going to help drivers to avoid traffic jams and we're going to focus on the drivers on their daily commute.

So the use case is very different. That the result is that you know if I would ask today drivers how often do you use Waze they will tell me every day right? If I would ask people that are using Google Maps how often do you use Google Maps they will tell me when I need it right in in. the need for Ways is actually on the daily commute and we started the journey in 2007 in the first version of Waze was running on a PDA Remember yeah a long time ago they were dinosaurs and then and they Nokia phones and we they all have iPhones and Android right? this is 15 years that's it and um we raised at that point. at that point people forget that they're very young.

There was that those Gremlins right? those plugins that you put into the and it was. That was really kind of that. The play the pre the iPhone um they wear. the use case was when you go to a place that you don't know Yeah and we turned that around by basically saying you know what we're gonna create we're gonna help you to to save a few minutes every every day, right? and occasionally a lot of minutes right? Because if there is an accident or something like that as it ended up, can I ask you a quick question I'm sorry to interrupt, but this is how my brain works.

Why do humans? Even when Waze is telling them the right answer, decide I Can't wait to hear your take on this. It is unbelievable watching humans when the data is so profound that they still have to go some other way. as if they feel like they know better. So in most cases they simply don't pay attention.

They simply pay attention. They you know they. This is the the route that they're doing. People like Drock who are just stubborn and think they know better.

What about those people like that? Obviously there are always people like that right then. Uh, and some some actually told me that they are actually competing with ways every day. there is a fastest route. um I don't know I would say it's possible but less likely.

Um and and so we ended up with uh and this is really interesting right? we start ways in the tagline of ways was uh, outsmart traffic together right? So so outsmarting is the most important thing, right? But as it turns out over the years, people don't necessarily take the fastest route. What they really care about is the the how long it's going to take them to get there and the the certainty versus uncertainty is the major value that Waze is actually creating for most people. So you know exactly when you're gonna get there and that's it and it's not a big deal. Um and so we started the journey we raised Capital 2008 We built the first version on smartphones.

We went to the market at the beginning of 2009 and that was in Israel and it was actually pretty good and then we beginning of 2010 we tried to make it available everywhere and it was not good of and this is where the realization that building a startup is a journey of failures coming from. You know it doesn't work and and you speak with the drivers they tell you that doesn't work for them. You build the next version, you know that this is it and it's not. So you think it all over again.

You speak with the drivers, you understand where the problems are. You build the next version, You know that this is it. And it's not iteration after iteration after iteration. more than a year of iterations until it's become good enough.

And so today, when I Define when I Define Building a startup is a journey, then I will Define three dimensions to this journey. The first one is going to be a roller coaster here with ups and downs and ups and downs. That and look Phil Tell me all the businesses in the world have ups and downs. Every but the frequency of those.

When you're building a startup in, the amplitudes are way higher. I Think that I Heard the best quote from from Ben Horvitz. Ben Horwich is one of the founders of Adversion. Orbitz Venture Capital firm and before that he used to be a CEO of a startup and he was asked whether or not he was sleeping well at night as a sea officer.

He said oh yeah, I slept like a baby I walk up every two hours and cried and that's the roller coaster chair. The second part of the Dragon It's going to be a very long one until you figure out product. Market Feed and product. Market Feed is when you bring value to your users or to your customers.

And if you don't figure out product Market feed, you will die As simple as that. Yep, in fact, you never heard of a company that did not figure out product Market Free. They simply died. That's it.

Has never, never happened. Um, actually on that point because I See this here I Want to get to this because we're going to run out of time with you know, fall in love with the problem, not the solution. These are things that you touch on. We just talked about it.

how to figure out product Market Fit which is huge and I think to be very Frank 90 of people are are naive about that truth. They would like to see something exist but they've given. They've given no humility or curiosity to the product Market Fit. so I love that you touch on that.

Then you talk about how to determine your business model and and lock down your growth plan. You also talk about the key components of building a successful startup that will disrupt broken markets. which I love because you've scratched that itch. I'm going to let you jump into which one you want here, but I just want to touch on this for the people that are listening if they're considering the book.

I Have good news for Yuri This was a good use of your time. This audience loves reading books so you're going to be very happy with me when you see the data on. Amazon After this podcast, there's um, the this one I Love the importance of firing and hiring the right people. Yes, in that order I have another I'm really excited to see that deciding when to sell and how entrepreneurs can prepare for the eventual exit of the company.

That's super interesting because you guys only ran ways for how long before you sold to Google about six years or officially five years. Really short period, very short period of time. uh and then the importance of paying it forward and guiding others uh, entrepreneurs in need which I love so much and I love that you end with that of the things that I just brought up which was really a primer for the audience in case I didn't get to it on things you can expect from the book. I Still Believe Books are one of the best rois in the world when I think about the people that write books and I think about the effort they put into it and I think about all that information costing about 20 bucks I still think it's one of the great rois that exist.

Of the things that I just brought up that you touch on in this book, which one would you like to double click into and speak on a little bit? So what? Uh, double click into firing and hiring? This is really interesting and we will double click on more and then you know if you'll give me the rest of the evening here in Tel Aviv then we will spend the rest of the evening here. We've got seven minutes. So like you know, that's how it's gonna really play out. We spoke with many entrepreneurs that their startup failed and ask them why what happened in about half say the team was not right and I kept on asking okay, what do you mean the team was upright and what I heard the most is you know we had this guy not good enough and this guy so not good enough was the main reason.

Another reason that I heard often is that we had that communication issues right something that I actually called the ego management issues and then ask them the most interesting question when did you know but him is not right All of them knew within the first month. Within the first month they said wait a minute if you knew within the first month that the team is not right and you didn't do anything. The problem was not that the team was not right. The problem was that the CEO did not make our decision.

making easy decisions is easy. Making hard decisions is hard. This is why most people don't like to make them in a small organization. Like a startup, it will go all the way to the top to the CEO to make those.

Now if the seal doesn't make those decisions, this is where it's becoming complicated, right? Yes, and the reason is a simple right. Startup is a small organization. Just imagine that you're in a small organization. 10 20, 30, 40 people and there is someone that shouldn't be there.

Everyone knows, Yes, everyone knows and the CEO doesn't do anything. That's where the the nature. It's a Crusher exactly. And then what happened? The top performing people would leave.

Yep, they become demotivating because they don't want to be in an organization that is unable to make our decision and they have a choice. Now if you have people that shouldn't be there and the top performing people are leaving, that's the beginning of the end for you. That's the way that you can recover. One of the major conclusions of the chapter firing and hiring is: look, if you hire someone, you if you're a hiring manager and you hire someone, you mark your calendar for 30 days down the road and ask yourself one question knowing what I know today would I hire this person Now if the answer is no, then fire them immediately.

You're doing yourself a favor, the rest of the team of favor the organizational favor and that particular person. You're doing them a favor because they're not going to be successful here. You already said that trajectory because you don't think that you should have hired them. And the reality is that if you don't act, everyone else knows and they see that you don't act.

And this is really really important in general. I Can say that for everything in your life, right? Knowing what unite today. If you're gonna do if you would do something different then do something different today Basically tell yourself no, no, I'm going into the wrong path then stop and change, right? Because today is the first day. Why do you think most people struggle with making the tough call? Because it's hard because you need to live with the consequences Because what if I'm wrong Now this is really interesting.

Spoke with my CEOs in my team that had to release someone from the management team right? So obviously if this is an employee somewhere else then they don't even know about it but the management team right and ask them when did you fire this person The answer was always the same way too late. Yeah yeah I have a I have a motto fire You know, higher, fast or faster, promote fastest and yet I'll be honest here and very vulnerable. I Struggle to play that course because for me personally the emotion of hurting someone trumps the financial impact of it. and where I was able to mature into later in my life was understanding the ramifications it was having on everyone else.

It wasn't about me but I was. you know at the time I was in my early 20s building my father's business and I and really even into my late 30s I really struggled with it and even today my last book I called 12 and a half and they talked about these traits that mattered. and I spoke about the half which mine was Candor and it was a struggle for me. it's why it was only a half I still needed to get to a full I Really do think a lot of people struggle with the emotional baggage of hurting someone I Agree.

I'm just saying it's actually the other way around. So let me say the following: Like if you're gonna hire someone, you are going to have sleepless nights 100 painful because it's hard because it's our decision and you afraid that you're gonna hurt someone and we don't want to hear that Earth You know someone that we just hired or someone that is with us, right? But the reality is that you are hurting them when you are not because they're living in a fake environment. they deserve to be successful successfully. They're working in a fake environment you've you've read, you've already killed them.

But they're a dead man walking exactly. And this is why I'm saying when you hire mark your calendar for 30 days down the road and then make the decision because that decision is going to be way less painful if you let it drag for a long period of time. right? If you let it drag for a long period of time, then everyone is becoming vested into that. If it's only a month after that, you hire them, it's easier for you and they deserve to be successful.

That was the most interesting question. The most interesting answer about this question is when you ask yourself would I hire this person and the answer is yes. This is the time to go and tell this person that they exceed your expectation that you are very pleased with the fact that they have joined the organization and if you can do any sort of demonstrating that for example giving them more equity, that's exactly the time to do that Because this is where you establish the trust and the Loyalty with someone that you basically just say that you are very happy with the hiring. Yeah! I Love that you're in our in our last minute or two here.

Anything you want to touch on so you know I'm going back into Um, into Product Market Feed and into understanding users. We tend to think that we are the typical user and we are actually an amazing sample of one person. That's it. And if we want to build something that will be applicable to billions of peoples to everyone, then we need to understand that not all the users are the same.

They are different users and they have different types of behaviors and they might be using the product differently and capture the value differently. And the only way for us to find out is to actually watch users and then ask them why. And so perhaps the most important part in the Journey of trying to figure out product Market feed is watching users and asking them why why you have done it this way and not this way, why you didn't do this and and so forth so you can understand and improve your product I Love it friend I'm uh I really enjoyed our time together. Congratulations on your success! I've known of you and your successes from very, very far away.

We've never had the chance to interact. I I Easily said yes when this crossed my desk I Want to support your book? My intuition is that it's going to be valuable for a lot of the readers that are listening to this and I wish you nothing but happiness and success. Thank you! Same here! Cheers! Cheers!.