Foreign up of CEOs Founders and experts. This is Marketing for the Now I haven't seen that for a while. How are you doing? Gary I'm good? yeah I Miss marketing for now Hello everybody! see you all in the comments uh excited to uh be back? uh see a bunch of vaynerx people in the comments Jen Lucico actually mean Sydney Sydney will get our uh, we'll get our calendars situated um uh Andrew I'm excited Fun episode everybody! Summer's over. You know it's 90 degrees.

Yes it is back to school we've got. We got an exciting episode here. We've got a whole crew of folks that we're going to be talking about education, retail, business, all kinds of exciting things so let's get in gear. First up, we've got our friend Amit Sevak who's the CEO of ETS and he's calling in live from a back to school conference.

We are so excited to have him talk! He's the largest private educational assessment organization and we are thrilled to have you on our show today! Amit Thanks very much Andrea Great to see you again here he is! I mean it's really great to see you brother! Um, why don't you? You know, because these go very quickly. why don't you give a quick intro to everybody on uh what ETS does and then I'll uh rattle in some of my uh questions that sounds great Gary uh ETS uh is a educational assessment company? Uh, we work in K-12 higher ed and Workforce uh. we think of ourselves as a people forward educational organization. We provide data and insights uh through a whole range of products and services.

We've been around for 75 years. Uh, we work both in the US and internationally. We're one of the largest educational organizations in the assessment space. So when you, um, when you, uh, think about the concept of back to School, you know how to how to how to how do you as a human with your background? Maybe you'll give a little bit of that and how does the organization think about that framework? What comes to mind back to school is that time of year when you're getting your kids ready for going back in the fall and certainly for college as well.

Uh, but I'd like to think about it. Gary Also, as a time where we as adults can reflect and think a little bit about our own learning. and um, we're at ETS doubling down on supporting adults, workers, employees of companies uh, with educational products and services. So um, I think back to school is is is is is an extremely important thing.

I Also want to highlight that you know there's a seasonality. You know we're having this conversation in September when we traditionally think about this. but so much of what's happening in the world now is is a shift from that kind of calendaring of school. Lifelong learning is is happening all year long.

and that old notion of you've got to go to high school for X number of years. Got to go to college for X number of years. You've got to learn for four years and then go earn after for 40 years. That's that's disrupting, right? There's a much more of a learn earned model where you're constantly learning.

you're constantly earning based on that learning. So um, so it is. It is quaint in some way to think about back to school. but I think it's it.

Also is a reminder for us to really be thinking about all the Innovation that's happening in education when you think about Innovation and education. and I think you're right. Like lifelong learning like it. You know when I was growing up, it was unheard of for a 32 year old human being in America to be thinking about learning or you know, like you'd hear like one sin of Blue Moon somebody going to night classes and almost always it was based on the insecurity they had of not having a certain degree, right? you know, Whereas now the progressive conversation rightfully so is you know, especially with the way the internet works side hustles Like people now actually believe that they can change their careers at 36 if they allocate digital learning or maybe even physical learning.

you know, when you think about Innovation and education and you think about some of the challenges, look I'm a I'm a pretty public figure that's been fairly loud over the last decade of like I Do not believe that College in the way it's constructed is for everyone in every scenario, especially when you take on an extraordinary amount of debt and your natural skills or interest will take you to a place where that those classes and that degree will not create the outcome that you're looking for. I Think a lot of times people think that I'm anti-education when I say I don't believe in college for everyone I'm actually the reverse I'm so uncomfortably pro-education I'm just Pro self-awareness and reality of one situation not Universal Vanilla ideology. One size fits all. Where is the educational sector? The industries, the governments, the universities, the private and public organizations? How advanced are the conversations on this? Nuance Is it gaining momentum with the actual behavior of the end consumers both pre-university college and to what you just talked about post or is there still? uh, a lot of red tape and ideology stuck in the systems.

Your assessment: Gary After covid, the mood changed in K-12 and higher Ed. I Mean we just realized how challenged, even broken so many of the elements were and so now the conversations are much more about the future. How do you incorporate AI into our educational system? How do you upskill teachers and professors to be able to offer courses and content that's relevant for the work world? I'm sorry to interrupt you. Um, how to incorporate AI into I'm watching this very carefully because I have children in the system I'm who I am.

This is one man's point of view. this is not even officially Ets's I Want to talk to you as the human now because I want to actually I'm just so you know I think you know I I have some worn feelings towards you Some genuinely curious: how many School infrastructures forget about teachers and principals because these are these decisions are made above that. What percentage of the orgs do you think are actually looking at AI as a positive? because I don't have to tell you almost all of them have banned Chachi chat, Gbt and other aspects because they're in that short term. You can cheat on a test.

you can write it like how many in the macro right now? your assessment how many people are pro figuring out how you know you say it. but I'm curious of how many people are living it versus what I'm seeing every day. headline by headline by headline of band, the band, the band, the band. where are we on? AI yeah I there are statistics that are Banning uh unfortunately.

Um, there's also, um, a lot of debate. but I would say Gary that the mood is Shifting we're actually in that moment right now with when chat GPT uh hit. At the end of last year the educational system went Whoa We Have got to confront this and address this. um Gary We launched uh in partnership with Code.org and uh the Khan Academy earlier this year a huge initiative called Teach AI And the initiative is exactly that is to Foster not just in the United States but throughout the world.

Just the the fundamentals of AI So what? 10 or 20 years ago when we were encouraging kids to learn coding, it's now teaching um them how to learn the fundamentals. It's the literacy. it's the essentials whether you're an elementary school middle school kid. High School Even if you don't want to become a software engineer just learning the fundamentals of what this this means.

So I I mean I think there's a movement under Wake area I I Really do you are right that there is a Fear Factor um in the school system in Parts but there are I think a lot of voices that are that are speaking the other way and saying we got to really know. And by the way, to the credit of the Fear Factor there's There's a lot of Fear Factor in society on it because it is a profound technology that will challenge us like deep fake videos is going to be something that the world is going to have to figure out. The way we figured out you know, atomic bombs and diseases like it is a big big deal. The fact that we've lived the last hundred plus years all treating video show as truth and now we're going to live through an era where I mean in three years there's gonna be videos of me all over the Internet saying things I never said and it's not going to be based on the eye.

Easy for someone to know if I said them or not and forget about me. I'm I'm a pimp on the ass politicians you know, bosses, leaders like. there's a lot going on out here. So anyway I it's insane how quickly we run out of time I want to give you a minute or two to touch on anything that you were thinking about going into this uh, fun session on marketing for now on the back to school edition Anything you want to touch on that we didn't get to Gary I think it ties into what we were just chatting about and I just want to build on it that the future is moving at a very fast rate.

So if you think about education as a sector just as much as it is a foundational element of society, it's an industry just like retail or other sectors. The currency that's now emerging in education is skills. And so you were talking about the traditional higher Ed system not working. The traditional higher Ed system is largely based on time.

You've got to do 120 credits you've got to work through. You know it's based on time in a seat, right? or time in classes. The world is shifting from time to skills as being the fundamental currency. and I think this is super exciting and the reason I think it ties into the whole back to school and ties into the workforce is because the world of work is changing so fast AI Industry changes new Industries forming energy.

All of the opportunities I see in K-12 and higher Ed are really the link to that world of work. And so the through line here is the new currency. The New Foundation of education is increasingly becoming skills more personalized education much more. Innovation So we at ETS are really looking to usher in that, from new products and services and assessments to new research that we're doing in this space.

so we're really excited to be on this show. and I love the fact that you invited an education organization uh to put the school in back to school. so thanks for inviting! Happy to my friend Wishing you success! Talk soon! Thank you! Thanks! Amit Gary Next up we've got Sophie Bambuck our friend the CMO of the North Face and she's been there for just over a year and she's come from some pretty stellar Brands And look at that background, she's come from Everlane. Nike Converse Where are you? You're right welcome Sophie I know I wish I was there I'm in Denver I wish I wish I was there yeah last minute last minute background change for you guys Hi I Love it.

How are you I'm doing good. How are you good? Why don't you tell everybody for the few that don't know uh what the North Face is and then we'll get into it. Oh gosh, The North Face We are at an outdoor industry uh, leader. We make uh, we're actually known for performance.

Uh, gear. but you know we've been adopted in youth culture so we now play across performance and what we call Performance inspired lifestyle. Um, and yeah, we make all the gears that goes with it from a barrel footwear equipment. Go get your tents and your sleeping bags as well.

Uh, we make all of that. So um yeah, we're uh, we're having fun. How is? how is you know? staying on theme you know. First of all, I'm a pretty big fan of the brand and obviously you have penetrated popular culture and I'm 47.

So I think when North Face started to really pop. you know in pop culture, not just the utilitarian aspect of the brand in the outdoors. I was in that sweet spot of late Teenage life and going into it. so it's always been a brand that I've had a lot of love for.

Um, how does the brand think about Back to school. This is the back-to-school Edition Is that like a big watershed moment for you? You strategize about that. There's a ton of marketers and entrepreneurs here, so I'd love to get your sense of like where does back to school sit for your business You've also been in a lot of places in the past, so you can speak broader as a marketer. where does it sit? It's the sixth biggest holiday.

it's the 13th. It's the first. For some, some don't care, others it's their whole business. 30 of their business.

How do y'all think about it? Yeah, I mean I'll say maybe to put it, um, it's probably the only kind of like what I call a commercial holiday that actually lives on our brand map right? because um, it is a time where you can you can. It's a double-edged sword. You can do it wrong. Uh, you either you can lose yourself as a brand because you're chasing Revenue you're Chase you're comping year over year.

Um, you can, also, um, use that time to actually do it right and actually really focus on products as a way to elevate your brand back to school for the North Face is massive I mean our backpack business alone is I mean we we make a ton of the year just through that back to school window I mean if when you take your kids to school, every single kid has either the jacket or other or the backpack and you know being that brand of choice on the first day of school is essential. That's how we build loyalty. That's how you know kids build their reputation also on that a little bit. Um, so it's really, really crucial for it.

You just said something that I'm profoundly interested in. I Believe that people misunderstand apparel and fashion completely and don't understand the higher plane and you just touched on it. So I'm actually going to use this to really educate the masses from a different voice than mine. um, fashion brands that the logo right? The North Face I'm very aware of what that meant.

the swoosh that used to work for we all know what that means. all the Guccis and the Pradas and all that like. Can you expand on the knowledge base of the biggest brands in the world of how much they understand that fashion is built on a human's expression to the rest of the world? No different than the haircut style they chose or whether they wear? I mean look at me right now like it's like the an emerging have brand my own brand. That's like a Pokemon thing.

I've decided to wear facial hair instead of clean like like the level of expression that fashion actually is I mean otherwise we would all wear unbranded cloths and call it a day. Can you go to that deepest highest level What this all means? Yeah, it's an identity Builder right? So the reality is what we the way. I look at it. Whether you're fashion or you're actually creating kind of innovative and benefit driven product, you're serving a need that the consumer might know or not know that they have.

and the majority of the time we're actually serving a need of identity. They want to be able to um Express outwardly to the world, who they are and what they stand for. Sometimes it is. Hey, I'm an early adopter I know the coolest things I am into innovate Nation I care about tech or I care about sustainability or actually to your use.

Some people choose to not wear any brand names because that is also their identity and they might want to actually identify with a specific segment or group or or belief, right? We have a huge role in making sure that people can find themselves in our product. So we actually a lot of the work that I've been doing over the past year actually is moving away from consumer segmentation, which is useful when we do targeted content. Etc But moving into mindsets because we're serving mindset, we're serving the reason why, right? Yeah, because if you're an 18 to 21 year old, you know Latino Male like cool but like your essence may be a 40 I mean I've Uh, there's a 22 year old kid in my life right now. The only way to sell to him is a relative.

Like is to Market to a 58 year old like Middle America like simple like like he's just he's 58 years old. he's 22. he's he's 58 so he was just a number. Really, what we care about is the behavior.

We care about, the why and what uh you know gets people there and again like just even to go back to back to school and what we were saying. It's easy to lose that focus when you go into a place where to your point every brand plays. It's basically a menu, unlimited menu of option and you just become one item against you know so many other. So the the work comes in before and after to make sure people can find themselves in the brand and choose the brand at back to school time and then during back to school time is really for us.

Like what is it that we want to elevate? I Mean this year we actually made the conscious decision that back to school for us would be a backpack campaign. but go in depth. Tell me where the zipper is Fantastic. Tell me why we built this for the outdoor versus hey, get your gear The North Face Which is kind of like the traditional approach, the why the utilitarian one.

It's about the way last minute or two for all the CEOs and CMOS What do they miss about Back to school if they are deep in it like they are Sharpie or or a fashion brand or or what are they missing? if they're not deep in it, it's like actually not a big on paper obvious place for them to play. What permission or opportunities are they not seeing? Yeah, I think um back to School is breeding ground for false narrative. So what happens often is you're looking at the results of Back To School and you're like, hey, you know, putting all my eggs in the Performance Marketing basket or the more commercial basket works I'm getting the return and very often what happens is forgetting or missing out on the elevated expression of the brand. So like you know, traditional funnel model missing out on your top.

kind of like funnel Opportunity by just focusing on The Middle on the on the bottom I Think that's traditional, like you'll see a lot of that. so that's a risk when you're a part of Back To School when you're not a part of Back To School Actually I Don't even know what you're missing I I You're lucky. you're lucky. If you're not a part of Back To School, it's not my favorite thing.

How about that? It's not my favorite. Is it not your favorite thing? From an operational standpoint, because it comes in the time of year, it's tough to get orgs, big orgs, a lot of entrepreneurs here don't realize what you're dealing with in these big companies. It's tough to get a lot of done in the summer in corporate life. And number two, you've also already got to be planning for the holidays and it's kind of in this middle and it's like it's almost like weirdly annoying.

And that's also usually when you're planning your three-year planning process and all that stuff. So yeah, it's really crazy. Um, but yeah, I mean you know for me, it's just yeah, it's it's It's a lot to manage. Uh, and honestly, it's not always the most aspirational stuff that you do.

uh, you really have a very clear Roi and clear goals that you're trying to accomplish. and you know I personally. I Really like the elevated brand stuff and you know the big strategic thinking. Um, and back to school doesn't always allow you to do that.

It fits within it. Um, but hey, it's also back to school now. Starts talking like may I mean it's I mean Santa Claus is in like in April like everyone's just gotten really oh Halloween stuff like right now and I'm like why Halloween stuff everywhere already I'm like geez, can we just enjoy football? coming back anyway. Love you thanks So we wish you well bye thank you Sophie Gary I'm super fired up about this next to guest he's the CMO of 4-H I Don't know if you know about 4-H but uh, you know when I was a little kid in Wisconsin I was Big Time into 4-H excuse me I went to high school in Huntington New Jersey where 4-H was religion I didn't know what I was walking into in eighth grade when I moved I came from Edison New Jersey never heard of 4-H it was more City Urban culture and then I got to Hunterdon County New Jersey and 4-H was Religion Amazing They're the largest Youth Organization they touched six million kids.

It's amazing and Ivan has come from the music and entertainment industry so he's done a lot in the two years he's been there and we're super fired up to talk to you. Ivan Thank you Andrea Religion I Love it We are religion That's What It Is Well You know I think when you are you you know you think about Boy Scouts Girl Scouts For a you know you know like you think about these you know uh Little League Baseball You think about these institutions that have formed a lot of our lives. especially you know as the world becomes more digital kids are spending more and more time indoors. There was a funny Tick Tock Ivan I saw where this one guy says he makes a he makes like a tries to make a video making fun of my generation saying wait a minute you guys used to drink water from a hose like didn't you know there were sinks inside and then like this woman stitched it and she was like uh we used to not be allowed in the house like we used to be outside and this is how we grew up and it made me laugh last night and makes me think a little bit about this combo which is like these iconic institutions that you know no no kidding when I say religion I think back to Jason Riker or Katie Hank I'm thinking about people in my high school that I got to know because I moved in eighth grade I got to know them by junior senior year and they were still incredibly passionate about giving back to 4-H because they referred to that organization as foundational in their lives.

Yeah, that's what I've come across as I started my role two years or two and a half years ago and and sharing with my network I Was surprised how many folks came out of the Woodworks and shared similar sentiments. You know I was like wow I didn't know it was that um you know, critical to to your development but you know two and a half years in and I realized it's one of America's great Innovations up there with Coca-Cola and like McDonald's right I mean our mission is to create opportunity for all kids just there just with that mission alone I was like sign me up. let's do this. Actually you know you just gave us the mission statement.

give people because I do think a lot of people don't live in parts of the country or the world who are watching and listening that are not familiar with the organization. Give us give us a one minute honor. Sure! So 4-H which is literally four H's that are on a four-leaf clover. Um has been around for 120 years and it's always been about providing kids with Hands-On learning personal growth and life skills.

So things like public speaking, running a meeting, project management, civil discourse, having empathy, giving feedback, judging others like through uh, you know, Um shows and and and uh, I'm sorry to interrupt you do. Does 4-H believe. It is an incredibly strong compliment to the K-12 system that is rampant where it's teaching a lot of the soft skills and life skills. You know.

One of the arguments that people like me always talk about is like Man I Really wish I learned a lot of the stuff that actually happens. Once you become 22 in school, you feel you feel like that's a strength. The 4-H is rounding out the curriculum. Absolutely.

Things like public speaking and a kid at the age of 9, 10 years old doing a speech in front of tens if not hundreds of people. um, and and overcoming that fear and then becoming a master speaker that you don't get that in school, right? So we are definitely expanding the toolkit and I Love Sophie's your conversation with Sophie Our product is Six Million Ready Leaders. That's what we're grooming and we have our eyes on. Like 10 million, right? We think every kid should be in this program.

We'd have a much better world if if we did that in The Upfront But for everybody who might have missed it, what were your two jobs prior to this? So I spent a career in entertainment I was always drawn to music and I thought I was going to go and you know tour with Justin Timberlake um or or like work at a record label I ended up doing both not with Justin Timberlake but I did go on tour as a musician and then my curiosity grew um to to sort of like see what other successes out there beyond music in the marketing space and that led me to of you know a very lucky opportunity at Nickelodeon um where I really cut my teeth and learning how to build did you ever uh, interact with Pam Kaufman there She's one of my mentors. love her to peace. She's the one. she is as special of a person in the business world as there is yeah and she has like endless amounts of energy.

I've never seen her like down. she's always positive and anyone who knows her knows she's a force. But and then I was able to uh you know parlay that into a good amount of time at Disney um which led which led me to this opportunity where we're at today. so Nickelodeon Disney all these big IPS Entertainment all you know I clearly love.

You know what was the biggest besides how many people were impacted by 4-H What else was surprising or different just trying to frame this up for people that to give them courage to go into new shifts in their career or try new things. What was what was surprising and what was most enjoyable? Well, I think I was intentionally looking to get out of my comfort zone I am constantly learning I am always the dumbest person in the room in the best possible way. I'm surrounded by Phds who are experts in and building great young people, right? What about reframing that? and I know you're being self-deprecating clever. but what about reframing that? From dumbest to most curious, most curious I like that.

That's definitely because I think I think words matter and I think a lot of people have imposter syndrome which really means insecurity, but I could tell that's not what you were saying by the tone and tenor I think you know it's funny I'm a big talker, but so it's hard for people to see it. But when they start working with me, they realize my core strength is the Curiosity and the listening I grasp pretty quickly, not in reading comprehension which is why I have to do a lot of verbal meetings but I grasp quickly which is why I then talk to get more insights. but I think the most curious person in the room is a very valuable asset to a team. Yeah, and I'm constantly learning and going around the country visiting Farms visiting urban areas Suburban areas because you know 4-H is in every County across the U.S which was another aha for me.

uh, growing up in Brooklyn I didn't have that exposure. Uh, but now I've seen firsthand the power of the programming and the byproduct of that program which is these kids. They are well spoken, they are ambitious, they're resilient, they're confident, and we're talking about back to school. Not a lot has changed some Nuance here and there from when you and I started high school.

but kids want to feel accepted in each of their personal groups. You know as much as changes, it's all the same thing, right? Just like to the last thing with Sophie kids are going to wear the kid robot or or you know, whatever segments like they're going to wear the brand that's the hottest I had Z Cavaricis These kids have speaking table like people are going to always try to identify that way and people are always going to want to be accepted. Every kid on Earth this week that went into a new school that was going into a new school, maybe just moved or something that nature or went to the next school system middle school, high school. all they want to do is be accepted, find a friend.

that's it. self-esteem belonging. Um, and it's an opportunity for Brands to show up and help these kids Express themselves through their individuality, right? and 4-H plays in that space through our programming. We're confidence boosters right? So hopefully we you know we.

we're building these kids that have more Swagger they're more confident, they're more empathetic. They're just better citizens bro. I Agree I agree that like I but you know, like it's just so exciting to help them be better citizens but also find balance right. You know, like to me right now, what I'm thinking about is the balance of everything I Think what? what I like about 4-H overall is I think it's a balanced system to the K-12 system and and I think in general America especially is pulling in such different directions: Politically, business World Socially even.

You know. one thing that bothers me a little bit: Ivan even though I think about it a lot which is like I don't know when we grew up there was less like generational Warfare like I didn't think us Gen Xers were like against the Boomers and I wasn't like, you know, like I wasn't mad at the Millennials I was like pump for them like right now like people are identifying with their generation. Yeah and I think it's because there's just so much more information. it's more socialized.

Uh, we say it. We say it. In all of these convenings, they are aware of it. They're more self-aware of who they are of what generation they are.

To me, the to me the great goal of society is to get us to be all part of one brand called Team Human and I feel like unfortunately right now we're all fine trying to self-identify into the most narrow places which always leads to for all you history. Buffs out there war when you identify with one group over another religion, race, country. uh, we've got a lot of it. And I think one the thing I see from a bunch of 4-H kids is um, being you said it.

and I think about like the old genre of like be good to your neighbor like that's gone. You know, like the reason us kids were able to go out in the 80s was we had 39 parents. not one or two right? like Robbie Turnick's mom was my mom too, so if I was acting a fool in her backyard I mean in the 80s you might get spanked by some friend's mom. like was different and I think I think one of the things at its best.

What? I think 4-H has done well and I came across a 4-H kid not too long ago which is why I was excited. That was the topic that we spoke on at a uh on a train. actually I think was going to Baltimore uh DC from uh uh just making teaching these kids how to love themselves so they can love everybody else. Yeah and foragers are more inclined to help you out.

You will find when you come across a 4-H and a 4-H Alum Right, it shows up in the In. In the adult version, they're more inclined to help you out and and extend that. Olive Branch Yeah I Enjoy This brother wish you well take care. Thank you Ivan Boy the cat is going wild.

Thank you Gary Team Human Love you. Talk to you later. See you later! Okay, all right let's bring up Zubeen. Zubeen is our EVP of E-commerce and we've got a really exciting conversation coming up with none other than Kate Spade Right Zubeen indeed! What an amazing session we've had so far.

I Can't wait to chat with Amanda Amazing! So we're going to welcome up Amanda Bob and she runs all things marketing and E-commerce and focuses on one of our favorite topics which is we call it brand performance that that whole notion of how are we balancing out brand and Performance Marketing and we know you're living it every day. Amanda So thanks so much for joining us of course! So happy to be here! Hi everyone Hey Amanda Uh, lovely to see you again Amanda Let's get started! Um first of all, shout out to Z Cava Richie Hadn't heard that in a long time and it brought me back to high school cream sweatshirt I Can't get that image out of my head. Um, but back to school theme for today I Want to talk to you a little bit about the marketing side of Back to School Consumer Behavior What folks can learn from your experiences this season and previous? Seasons But specifically this season can you talk to us a little bit about the shopping? Trends You've seen from Consumers they're unique to this season versus previous. Seasons Yeah, so one of the things that we're seeing and I think it customers really looking for back to school product as early as late June And then we launched a lot of back to school activity in early July which is a bit earlier for us, so we definitely see this pull forward.

In addition: I think because of all of the things that are happening within the macro economy, we see the consumer being much more price sensitive. and in addition to that, she really wants to see that she's getting value for the money that she spends. So what we saw more so this year relative to Prior years was a stronger emphasis on functionality. She wanted to make sure the laptop would fit in the bags.

does it have enough? Pockets Does it have enough zippers and so on and so forth. Whereas we had some other messaging that we felt like would be really valuable to the consumer, things about recycled materials, more fashion plays, we saw those being less interesting to her relative to the functional aspects this year, and I think it's more about again, she's looking to make sure she's squeezing out as much value for her dollar as possible. So a lot of fascinating points there. Let's talk about starting the season early and starting to Market early.

Um, what kind of drove that and what did you learn as a result of that? And how could you shift and iterate and be more agile as a result of starting early? Yeah, so I think a couple things I think one. I Think the consumer is really looking for moments in the calendar of punctuation, right? We know that um, one of the things that gives consumers permission to buy new clothing and accessories is this idea of new of starting something new. So I think the more that we can get into that mindset for her earlier, the more it gives her permission to purchase. I think that's one piece of it the other piece of it is.

Of course, starting early gives you the opportunity to eke out a little bit more share relative to your competitors. And then lastly, it gives you the opportunity to think about okay, what's working, what's not working, and what do we need to shift as we get into the peak moment of the season. And I think an example of that is again where we had some messaging around things that were perhaps more fashion driven or more driven around messaging about sustain ability We saw that wasn't resonating as strongly. so we had the opportunity to make to make a ship there.

So I think that's a fascinating point there. One of the things that we talk uh to a lot of brands that we work with uh is this notion that social listening and really leveraging kind of your.com and access that you have to first party data really gives you significant lug up on those organizations that don't so you can understand what's working shift accordingly. Can you talk to us a little bit about that process that you realize that the functional messaging was outweighing or performing better than the fashion focused messaging and how you learn that and what you did as a result of it? Yeah, so well here at Kate Spade and at a table around reading and reacting. and so we look at a variety of different data points.

Some of that is social listening. Some of that is the way that people are searching on e-commerce Some of that is just Pure Performance data in terms of what people are clicking on and engaging on. Um, so we have a pretty good mechanism set up in place to be able to listen, um, and make some make some changes and earlier on in the season. as I said, you know we thought, hey, we've got some product that's got recycled materials in it and we feel really great about this And this is a message that we think is great for the environment and the consumer will really respond to.

And it's not that she didn't respond to it, but what we heard her talking about much more was questions around functionality. Will my laptop fit into this? Um, you know, does it have a pocket for my water bottle and so on and so forth. And when we started to see those pieces of feedback come in scale from a variety of different data points. Again, be it social listening, be it what the consumer was searching for, we had that opportunity to say, okay, let's switch out some of the language that we're using.

Let's switch out some of the assets that we're using to make sure that we're putting front and center the product that she's looking for. because we know, especially in a digital environment. If she doesn't see what she's looking for immediately from you, it's quite easy for her to go and find it from somewhere else. That's fantastic.

I Think it's again such a great uh approach to marketing and really the only way to properly Market In today's society and based on consumer Behavior To really listen to what's happening out there and create this mechanism as you have that gives you the ability to shift. It gives you the ability to change your messaging and creative so that you're addressing what it is that she's actually interested in. Speaking of. Kind of.

from that's from a social digital standpoint, how do you infuse what you're hearing from store associates into that model? Yeah, so that's actually a really good point. That's is another piece of input that we have. We have a weekly business recap meeting and we get lots of feedback from the sales associates within that conversation And what was happening here is we were actually seeing a lot of synergy between what the consumer was saying online and what they were saying in stores to our sales associate. so this was an example of where that all really dovetailed very nicely, and one piece of feedback from one population corroborated what we were seeing elsewhere.

And so we were able again to make that change in a wholesale way that enabled the consumer to better find the product in store as well as online. That's amazing. Amanda As you've heard from our other guests, these sessions go incredibly quickly. So one, um, you've been I think you've shared significant amount of insight for our audience and hopefully the marketers out there learning quite a bit.

and it's helping them adapt to what they're already in flight from back to school, as well as what they're going to be doing for the holidays. One final question for you, from your unique vantage point, the fashion industry, what do you think is the most significant change or Trend this reshaping Fashion Retail today and why should our audience take note? So one of the things that's really interesting right now is that younger consumers, particularly Gen Z There's this idea that in order to blend in, you have to stand out, and it's a bit of a contradiction in terms in that consumers are looking to express more individuality to feel like they're fitting into the group. And so it's a really interesting thing from a fashion perspective because historically the industry is used to hey, we set a trend, we set a tone. We tell the consumers what to buy and they pick up on it.

Now what we have to be able to do is find Nuance within those Trends and ways to speak to variety varieties of consumers and subsets to make pieces of collections or pieces of product feel like it's their own and that they can Discover it and reinterpret it as necessary so they can feel again like the individual who fits in with the crowd. that's incredible I Love that and I think that it's so incredible to be able to have again that organization to your point and the products that you have that are from a manufacturing standpoint. I'm sure it's not easy, but you're giving individuals the ability to be individual and yet to your point feel Blended in which is quite ironic and yet society today. Yeah! Amanda this was lovely.

Thank you so much for joining us of course. thank you for having me have a wonderful afternoon. Beautiful thank you thank you Amanda and thank you Zubeen! Always a pleasure! Likewise, all right next up let's bring Zach Nadler CEO of Vayner speakers I Love Zach How's it going I'm doing great How are you doing? Oh I'm so fired up for this conversation I'm going to keep the intro very brief because I Want to save all the time to sit back and learn? We've got Laura Gastner Odding who's a best-selling author and hopefully you can tell us a little bit more. She's much more than just an author.

she's a coach. She's a catalyst. She's going to tell us how to think big and I think we could all use this in our back to school. Um Edition this time in our life.

so welcome Laura Thank you Laura Welcome to marketing for the now how are you Oh I think you might be on mute Andrea Are we good back behind the scenes. How's that? Is that better? I can't hear uh is that better? Oh, there we go. There we go. Okay, now we're cooking all right.

Sure, we're still figuring out all the technical stuff I Like this? Um, all right so we're gonna. Dive Right In because we do only have 10 minutes. Yes, um and so I love this because the timing is great. This is the back to school edition and you actually just dropped off your second son to college.

so I can't imagine that when you're writing, wonder how that's what you were talking about? So your latest book Wonder Hell tell us a little bit about what that feeling is. Yeah, so wonder how is that moment when you've achieved something and you're like oh my God It's amazing. It's exciting, it's humbling, it's wonderful. And also, there's a possibility in front of me that I didn't know existed and isn't that exciting and intimidating and anxiety provoking an imposter syndrome rendering.

it's amazing. It's wonderful. but it's also a hell. It's Wonder hell.

And I think all of us in this moment in time are feeling this. This is incredible. There's so much more out there. can I go for it? Wow.

Yeah. I mean I think you articulated that great because I think it's a feeling we all have and didn't even realize we were all having it. Um, so with this episode being about back to school and there's so many marketers that are watching watching, this was thinking someone said it earlier. But this is like the second biggest spending period for consumers.

And so when these marketers are dealing with such an important time and you know, even for students who are starting something new, there's a lot of self-doubt that can come into play. So can you share some tips for how these folks can kind of navigate all the self-doubt when there's so much at stake. Yes: I think back to school, it's almost like New Year's It's like the real New Year's right I think Ann Hanley said that the other day. It is a time of reinvention and renewal of Hope and optimism.

It's gonna be my year finally, right? But it also comes with this: I don't know it's really going to be a right. It's something to realize. I'm a fraud. Am I going to get kicked out uncertainty, doubt in security I Think everyone wants to feel special, but nobody wants to feel different.

and I think if we look back on some of the times when we were at our best, it wasn't when we were conforming to what everybody else was doing I Think facts have a hard time arguing with emotion. so if we make a list of the times when we're at our best, that's a great way to remind ourselves that those moments when we were different, we actually were pretty damn special. Wow. And I mean there's so much there.

And I think something that you're kind of touching on is this idea of redefining success. And I know that you've written a lot about this, but how do you know? Whether it's the executives watching this or students we're living in such results-oriented world. But how do you kind of navigate that when you're trying to measure your own success? Yeah, look, I Think we are all given these other definitions and success right? definitions of success handed To Us by our parents, our teachers, our bosses, and a lot of times we have to stop and say, you know I can't be insatiably hungry for someone else's goals. So what actually matters to me now when I was an entrepreneur running an executive Search firm I realized that I could go hard after several results I could either maximize for profit I could maximize for Freedom flexibility or I can maximize for impact in the world and that can definitely at any given time I could maybe maximize two of the three of them, but I couldn't really go for all three.

so I would sort of set seasons I would set intentions I'd set goals for periods of time where I would run hard at one or two of these. You know pretty consistently and what I found was that the third always came. So if you're like in this place and you're like I've got everybody else's definitions being handed to me, I would stop and think what actually matters to me most. what are the things that are the biggest priority when all the plates are up in the air and I can only catch a couple of them which are the ones I'm gonna really want because if we go hard at those things that matter to us most, not only do the rest of them come, but we're actually really good at the things that we really care about.

God that makes a lot of sense and I think you're prioritizing is something we could all probably do a lot better or job at. Um, and so you know this is actually marketing for the now right? So I wanted I Want to kind of go back to some of the marketers here and I'm curious like with wonder how what are the real takeaways that that marketer specifically can can learn from? So what? I found you know I talked to a hundred different glass ceiling shatterers Olympic medalists, startup unicorns all in these moments of life where everything changed and every single one of them whether they were literally starting like a second billion dollar company which is a great phrase, right? a second billion dollar company or there we should all be so lucky. Or they're like at the starting blocks of the Olympics with a gold medal in their pockets still wondering like am I gonna it up on this one this time or if they were marketing a new product or something. They all found themselves in these moments and what they realized was that meaning was the thing that mattered most.

So when they were talking to the consumers when they were trying to decide if they wanted to do the work in the dark one nobody could see when they were trying to put together a new product. what they did is they said what actually matters to the people who are going to buy from me. Judge me. Make a decision whether or not I'm gonna get to the next stage and so for example, you know nobody cares if your product is made up of you know, recycled fabric.

If it's not going to help you feel confident being the best you, No one cares how much memory is on the memory card if you're not going to be the life of the party. So if marketers are thinking about going after the what 83 billion dollars of spending that's happening right now, the way that they go after it is not to talk about your product or your process, but to talk about the problem that you solve. So if you can see your consumer's problem and they can feel seen in that problem, that all that's left for you to do is to say I see you I got you and I'm going to hold that problem in my hand until our shared problem goes away. So it's really actually a lot easier to say I solved your problem than to say let me tell you the 15 different ways.

our process is cool and so that's for the marketers. What are the non-marketers I mean I know you're an executive search for a long time, so do you have any personal examples you can share? Yeah, I Can tell you that when I went in in executive Search I would walk into my client's office, my potential clients offices and I was like let me tell you how geeked out I am about how cool our process is and I crushed it I mean I was really really good except I didn't sell Jack and the reason I didn't sell anything was because at the end of the day and actually tell them myself their problem and one day I had a friend on a search committee I thought he's called me up afterwards to be like Laura you're awesome You got the work and he called me he's like Laura sorry you didn't get it I was like why and he said let me ask you a question do you find the world's best talent I was like of course I do man that's like table sticks he goes yeah but you never said it. Every other search firm walked in and said we find the world's best talent Now let me tell you how you walked in and you're like let me tell you how we do our work and we never knew that you actually realized that the thing we cared about most that we need to find the world's best talent was the thing you actually did So starting from where your customer is where your consumer is and saying we solved your problem I see your problem, it's real I Get it I Honor it. I'm gonna solve it now.

let me tell you how they don't care about the process or the the product until you tell them you see their problem I Love that if it feels like you were kind of battling your own authentic authenticity like what do I want to be and kind of what do I want to stand for and I mean I'm kind of curious because with this idea of wonder how and and would you Dove so much into authenticity? like there's a lot of internal struggles we all have with battling this success and especially now right. Whether it's a marketer going into the back to school season or even a student going back to school, how do you balance this kind of genuine yourself right with such significant ambition? Yeah, Can I tell you a secret? I Don't think ambition is a dirty word. Everyone's like, oh, she's so ambitious like it's like a bad thing. Okay, what? Showing up? Let me ask you this would: having more money, more time, more resources, more leverage, more market share, more name recognition help you show up better for the people you love and the causes you hold dear.

No, you would you I'd like time. Yeah. Okay, so having more time, right? having more of anything, more money, more time, more leverage, more power, more anything that would help you show up better. better here, right? Yeah, so it's not your worst.

It's not not your ambition, it's your responsibility, right? I Don't think it's a dirty word. And I think being able to show up better for the people you love like crushing it in your work so that you had more time to be with your family. I Know you just dropped your daughter at school yesterday. being able to do that more that allows you to be the most genuine, more authentic version of yourself.

So why wouldn't you be hella ambitious so that you could do more of that? I think they go hand in hand I'm all for ambition I Think ambition is the road to genuine authenticity I Love that! Well I'm getting the hook here. Um so I Want to thank you for joining us here on marketing for the now uh Andrea thanks for having us I think we need a full episode on just this topic about that later I am I am so into this and just let's go. There's so many notes. Incredible thanks to you guys.

Just thank you! All right and last but not least I want to welcome up Mindy Shire I Just met Mindy last week. but I feel like I've possibly known her my entire life I don't know one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. She comes from the fashion industry but she's now bringing all of that knowledge and all that passion to people that have disabilities. Um, just incredible work.

and Mindy I'm so glad that you could join us. Um, we're just about to hit Fashion Week which is interesting um, but would love for you maybe to kick things off and share just a little bit about your work. Um, and what got you especially to be the founder of Runway of Dreams Absolutely well. first of all, Andrea thank you so much for having me.

This is such an important topic on such an important platform. So as you mentioned, I'm a fashion designer by trade, but I'm also the mom of a now 18 year old son who has a rare form of muscular dystrophy and when he was entering School in kindergarten, our biggest worry was how was he going to be able to go to the bathroom on his own if he was wearing anything that had had buttons and zippers in it? And so we solved that problem by him wearing sweatpants every day until he was eight years old and came home and said Mom I want to wear jeans I want to wear what everybody else gets to wear and it was a pivotal moment in my life in my career that I needed my eight-year-old to remind me of how powerful clothing is to who you are as a human as a person. So much of what Laura and Amanda just talked about um, in terms of confidence and identity Etc So I modified a pair of his jeans. Um, and when I saw the massive confidence that came over him from being able to not only independently dress himself for the first time, but to go into school with his head held much higher from a pair of jeans, it opened my eyes to the fact that there are 1.8 billion people on our planet that have a disability.

It's the largest minority in the world that any single one of us could be a part of at any point in our life. So how in the world are we not thinking and making products for a population that is so large and so important in in, uh, our our world? So in 2013 I started Runway of Dreams Foundation with the tiny little goal of changing the fashion industry to be inclusive of people with disabilities. In 2016, we partnered with Tommy Hilfiger made fashion history by developing the first ever mainstream adaptive clothing line and that really opened the floodgates to so many other brands. Even other Industries knocking on our door saying how do we get involved, how do we develop adaptive products So in 2019 I launched Gamut Management which is the first of its kind Consulting and Talent Management Company exclusively in the Adaptive space and Mindy I Have to tell you when you share those statistics at the At: Wonder can the conference that we're at at wonder I about fell off my chair because I had no idea that there were 1.8 billion people that are suffering from disabilities but you also shared something and I don't remember the the exact number but just in terms of economically the opportunity for Brands and for those that can kind of lean in, it's absolutely a huge business opportunity at the same time.

Absolutely, it's 13 trillion dollars is the estimated spending power of this population that to be completely honest is still White Space it it and and really think about where we are in our lives and the world. How often do we get white space? This is really still untapped with huge movers. Um, in the industry that are really making strides, especially in the fashion industry. But there's an opportunity.

and as I shared at the conference, it is really almost impossible to find a company that has a product or service that cannot be modified to make it easier for people with disabilities to utilize. Yeah, and you know I was really struck by some of the examples and you showed a lot of visuals and things. but I think you know I myself have had a number of different injuries over time where it's difficult for me to put buttons and small buttons or you know, hook it hooks and eyes and when you were sharing that kind of thing I couldn't help to feel like you're making the world you know sort of better and easier for all kinds of people that maybe suffering may not in fact have a declared disability and yet, um, you know we all have challenges at different moments in time and that you any one of us could have a disability in the future. Absolutely.

And and one um, you know fact that I stated that I think is really important is when the button and the buttonhole was developed. it was developed in the 13th century and the fact that we are still utilizing that technology when we literally can run our lives through our phones is such an opportunity for our in so many businesses to rethink the way that things have been done so that more people can utilize Um the product or service. A great example too. One you're wearing and those are eyeglasses.

They started out as a medical device. Now it is a multi-billion dollar industry that is solidly even a part of the fashion industry it is. It is considered an accessory that we as consumers really love to wear. The other is texting.

Texting was developed as an alternate way to communicate. Now it's the most used form of communication. So really rethinking the way that things are done so that more people can utilize the product or service is not only Innovative but it is adaptive in nature. You know? The other thing that uh struck me is just that all of us are trying to think more about our diversity.

You know our De and I um initiatives and things like that as as business people and yet many are not thinking about populations with disability whether they're physical disabilities or I sit on the board of Creative Spirit that focuses more on intellectual disabilities. But it does feel like um, you know this is not we aren't talking about about this population enough. Um, can you share any more about that And maybe you know? Are there ways that we can all become more involved? Definitely. And that's again one of the reasons why I'm so grateful to be here because unfortunately, disability classically has been left out of the Dei conversation.

Um, when again it is the only minority that is a cross-section to every other minority. You will find them in the world of disability. so it's it's really. And and I shared this with the work that we are doing currently with Victoria's Secret and not only helping them to uh, modify their products to have adaptive uh bras and underwear that's launching in October and on our runways next week um, but they also um simultaneously were working internally and and really in their Dei statements their HR their sales team How they are approaching hiring people with disabilities.

it is something that absolutely has to be considered internally as much as externally. Um. and that is something that that we again and take really seriously and and really helping Brands navigate the process to become more disability confident. That's extraordinary.

So you kind of hinted at what's going on next next week. we know that um, you know New York is uh, is all in on the on the Fashion Runway all the shows that are going on. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're up to? Absolutely So Third, this coming Wednesday The 13th Uh, we will be hosting our biggest New York Fashion Week show where we will have over 70 models with all different disabilities wearing product from Tommy Hilfiger Target Kohl's JCPenney Zappos Steve Madden Stride right? And actually for the first time ever product will be debuted uh from Victoria's Secret uh their first adaptive products on women of all different ages, ethnicities and and abilities. So it's really going to be a pivotal moment and I'm so excited that you're going to be there to experience it I Can't tell you how excited I am and we'll make sure that we'll share all that we can uh with the broader world.

It's going to be such a special event and you know would we'd love for folks to be leaning in and helping in any way, shape or form. If there's anything else that you could share in terms of a call to action, um, you know, feel free to do it, but we're going to be chatting this up on social uh and hope to have everyone that wants to join in on this on this. Mission um be a part of it. Absolutely.

I mean the the call to action that I always say is to talk about it, go back to your companies if you if you, no matter what product or service that you are working on or if you don't necessarily have one, but internally we could be doing better. Think about the numbers that we talked about: 1.8 billion people identify with having disabilities, so that's actually a much higher number. 13 trillion dollars is up for the grabs for the amount of spending power that this population has, and it's the largest minority on our planet that every single one of us could be a part of. That is power.

We can all do better and make this world a much more accessible place. We can. We can together well. thank you so much! Mindy I Love you, love yourself and thanks so much for joining us! Thank you all right! Thanks everyone for joining this episode This back to School episode.

We hope you have a great kickoff um of the fall and we look forward to seeing you in our next episode on October 19th from 12 to 1 P.m Eastern We will see you then.