I Need one place where I know all 837 000 are Definitely gonna see this because I'm getting guaranteed delivery. That makes a ton of sense. It's why I continue to have an email service and it's why I have Community detect service I'm extremely excited for this next guest. Uh I think this will be a very fruitful conversation and I think uh, it's going to bring a lot of value to this specific uh podcast that we're putting out this special.

So my friend, why don't you tell everybody your name, what you do, uh and then we'll get right into it. My name is Eamon Hariri I'm the CEO and co-founder of Vero So for the people that don't know out there, uh, why don't you tell us what Vero is and a little bit about the history. So Vero was established as a an alternative social Social Network online that really differentiates itself mostly by not doing uh, any ads or data mining. So we have a chronological feed.

Creators can post what they want to their followers. They gain access to 100 of their followers without the platform manipulating the feed in any way. So it's a fully chronological feed. and um, we're not doing ads.

We're not in the attention economy at all. We're in the subscription, uh, business. We haven't turned subscription on to anybody that joins Vero today gains access to Pharaoh for life without ever paying a subscription. But then when we turn.

So there's the Arbitrage Dustin Get that BMX Channel up now if because he's going to clearly turn on subscription at some point. but you can be locked in in perpetuity. Yeah, in perpetuity. That's right noted.

Go ahead. and then later on when we do turn on subscription, it's going to be a very small amount that people will pay a yearly fee or a monthly fee. and it's really for us to just keep the the platform honest for us to be serving our users. Having them be our customers rather than advertisers Be our customers.

Where we have to constantly try to get the attention of the users to use the platform so that they can see ads. So what's your take on this question? Do you believe that the subscription so we as people who post on social will be paying 9.99 13.99 29 9900? Whatever it ends up being. Um, but we get 100 of the audience that decides to follow us to see it. which is extremely different than it is today.

Yeah, more like email. right? Exactly right? Do you believe if I asked you for foreshadow for me? Do you think in 10 years that a Creator like myself, Do you think I'll have one of each meaning or I'll probably be on several platforms? But or or not do you actually that's actually the question? Do you believe that most people in 10 years will have a social network that they're paying for a subscription and one that looks more like the ones that are out here today where there's an algorithm and ads and things that nature. Or do you think one or the other beats out the other in a model? Yeah, it's A it's A it's a great question question. I'm not here to replace everything and be the be-all end-all with our platform.

I Think what we're trying to establish is is choice and a choice that gives you more value for the time that you're putting into the into the platform, whether you're a user and our customer using the platform and getting the most value for the time that you're spending, Or a Creator like yourself who's spending time making content, thinking about ideas, thinking about a roll out, having a team, and all of those. How does the user get value? So the user should get value for the kind of content that they're getting. Whether it's um, it, whether it's content from their friends that's personal and meaningful to them at that level, or from creators that are providing value to them through the whatever it is that they're getting across, Whether it's entertaining, whether it's teaching them something, whatever it is, but that's something they're able to get in other platforms now. Absolutely okay.

But without the ads and without all of the which is exactly for a lot of people. No, Absolutely So from the user's side, the people consuming no ads. High value products in comparison to what's out there for the creators. Uh, there's a value in that.

Everyone's gonna actually see it of the audience. Imass? Absolutely. Um, is there is there ways to offset your subscription costs? Yeah, that's an interesting question. So we just recently, um, we recently acquired a company called Tokenize which is a regulated Stock Exchange And you may say, okay, what? What's why is a Social Network buying a stock exchange and the whole idea there is for the community to end up having a chance of owning a piece of the platform and doing it in a regulated way That has us do it where it's all legal and you can start to earn shares in the company now.

Details: uh, will come out in the future in the near future. I Mean we just acquired this, this company and we merged it into into the Social Network and it's really the first time anybody's done this and where our heads at is we're building this for the community. We're building this for the rest of the world. not for us to own and reap the benefits of that by ourselves, but for us to be joined by the creators who get to earn a piece of the platform by bringing in people who start to pay for Content or pay for their channels or whatever else or pay for the app, but also for those users who are coming in and making a decision that they want an alternative platform, they're paying a subscription.

You know? Wouldn't it be great if they could earn shares in the company as well? Take me back to the history of the platform because I know, you know and I notice how quickly my team shakes their head because we watch everything and I mean everything. There was a moment of what I would call Micro virality for this platform. Can you take me back to when that exactly was because it feels like five or six years ago, right? and what? You know a how deeply if at all were you involved at that point because it's blurry in my head. if like, you came in later and bought a piece or you're actually there for day one.

you know, like I could see by your body everybody listening to body language? No, no, so you were there. What? What was behind the micro virality of it? Because there was a few minutes there where it was really spiking and and it was happening for a period of weeks or months. I Remember very vividly. sure and and this is a big compliment there.

the in the history not what I feel like I'm gonna be in like a lot of documentaries when I'm older in the history of social networks. Obviously we know the ones. We all know there's things like Vine that really had it, but they've sold in a year. Uh, and unlike what Meta did with Instagram Twitter decided to shut down Vine Um, but there are very few social networks that have even gotten to that point where they've had a moment.

what was that and and obviously after it happened, it was probably easier to figure out why it happened. or maybe not because virality is interesting, but what was that? When was that and and how did it happen? Yeah, it's uh I I've definitely been there since day one. I can show you the scars on my back to show that and the white hairs in my beard. uh to also show that but um what happened in 2018 and that's when.

uh, the virali yeah 2018. if covet I feel must have made me like God was it really only as re I would have like lost that bet. yeah I thought it was longer than that when did it come out? So 2015 is when we put it in the IOS app store I think I might have wrote an article and it came uh after that on Android and now we're on iPad and desktop and Desktop is a beta for the for the time being in Android as well. but we're coming out of beta soon on Android.

So uh in 2018 what happened was we we were experimenting with ads like we were actually just trying a few ads and letting people know about us. uh to increase the number of of installs per day and just see if we you know what would happen if we put out a message that says no ads, no algorithms and no data money? That's it. I Mean that's the chronological feed. Yeah, we just put those those four uh phrases in different uh small video clips and just put them out as ads and um and I didn't spend that much on it either and as you said, we became number one app in the world.

That's crazy. So it it was really I think it we. we turned all the ads off at that point because we couldn't handle the the load. That was the major part that um brought things back down.

but we we sort of learned from that that it doesn't take much to, especially with what it is that we're doing to get a lot of attention. And I think now more than ever people are seeking an alternative. We haven't done any real advertising since then. Yes! and we made a decision a conscious one to build the tech stack that is scalable to keep building on community which is what we've been doing.

So all the growth that you're seeing in the platform, the six and a half million users and above that we have now have all been organic. Um, and now we've just introduced the investment stack which we're very excited about because well it's a massive Innovation well and it it gives a return for the time that you're spending on social, especially for the creators or bringing so much value to the platforms that they decide to use. But they don't get access to the equity value in the platform, they get different value they do. They get different value.

which is it's actually Jerry rigged on to the existing platforms because of course it's sponsored posts. It's this and that or the stuff they do off platform or the stuff that they do on platform like Fame is real. Yes, So once you build it like Charlie Demilio makes a lot of money because of what happened on Tick Tock outside of things, she does on tick? Absolutely. But to your point, for a smaller group, this infrastructure would create an extreme long tail of opportunity.

Correct? And we're going after the everyday creator that wants to make money and wants to make um, a living off off of the thing that they're passionate about and they don't need that much. But what's interesting is when we look at you know if I if I sit and told you right now that somebody had a thousand followers you'd say okay that that's cool but you know that's on the the Lower Side of the the Spectrum you've got people who've got hundreds of millions of followers and so. but I mean of course to anybody who wants to make a living doing it absolutely for a lot of people listening right now like I'm kill for a thousand followers No absolutely for normal every day. but like of course if someone wants to make a living, a thousand is going to be on the extreme low side Exactly.

And but when you start to look at uh, whether it's subscription or you start to look at backers of your project, whatever that may be, that's a lot of people who you know who I always I love you for that because man, back in the day I was like do you understand what 80 115 people that want to see what you have to say looks like physically you put 815 people in an auditorium and you speak in front of them. You know you'd be like holy crap I made it. But in this world you're like I'm an imposterous into my son I'm like you don't suck But to your point, you know as we go into the Commerce part of the conversation with the blockchain enables potentially over time. Uh, and obviously when I hear you talk about what you're talking about, it's famous of what's going on in the U.S with the SEC and what's going on in Europe like clearly the governments around the world Hong Kong this and China that and you ask this.

the regulation and the the understanding of cryptocurrency and Nfts is kind of a little bit unclear. It seemed clear and it got it. Kind of like took a step backwards. seemed in 1920 like things were kind of pretty obvious with coinbase going public and things in nature.

But clearly we've taken a step back of like you know, people just don't know what so obviously you going specific to you know an actual stock market enables you to actually punch those two together? Yeah, absolutely I Think how does that work for people that live in countries where it's not as clear? Like obviously the stock market that you bought is not in the U.S right? That's right, right? So like what does that mean for someone that lives in London Or for someone that lives in Amsterdam or for someone who lives in the U.S Will they have? Is there gonna be a little period of time of clarity if they're gonna be able to interact with those Commerce realities? Yeah, we'll make all of those things clear. Whenever anything that happens on the stock market, we'll make sure that things are clear. but definitely going down the path of Regulation gets you there further. It's harder to do obviously upfront, but it's nice to have Clarity exactly.

And then you just have um, a system Just as a guy paying attention since you did that, What you've got to tell you on like what's your bet on the governments around the world to actually have Clarity on cryptocurrencies and blockchains and Nfts which are hot Take? do you think it's another two three, four years of of you know politicking and government stuff Before we as a society of 8 billion have Clarity of where and what and how we can do things look I Think there is Clarity around What is a security I Think the the problem is is that we're we're starting. You know we're what's colliding right now. Is are us being used to things happening quickly yes and being able to be instanced on the internet? Yes. And for that to be the disrupting uh, force and enough of a disruptor that all of this old you know sort of law or whatever it is gets changed.

Yes, the reality is is that these things have been put in place to protect investors. Yes, so these laws are there to Def or rather to back up the usage of something called the security. And the Security is one of actually one of the best inventions in the world. It allows us to own shares in things that exist and we get to back them and we get to reap the benefits of them.

So what we're trying to do is we're trying to marry that concept with this endless supply of creativity that's out there. Whether it's the creativity that uh, creates a song that could be a hit or a movie, um, or any kind of business and hopefully in the future we've had Publishers Yeah, Publishers Absolutely Players: Banks Upfront economics, right? Exactly. And obviously the blockchain is going to have an incredible opportunity to create innovation in that scheme. Yeah, and and all block.

What blockchain Does You know all blockchain does or or what it does extremely well is add that layer of transparency. that's the number one thing. and I Look at web 3 as a It's actually a set of behavior. It's not a technology stack.

it's people deciding they want to include other people into the project that they're doing and be completely transparent and use blockchain as a transparency on the back of a profound new technology, on the back of a profound new technology that backs up if the concept of transparency I Agree if people understood action what a what a blockchain did versus a internet server. Yes, the speed in whichever it actually is addressing what everyone's anxious about. but it's misbranded. Absolutely Yeah.

and but at the same time, there's a lot of work that has to go in in advance. It's kind of like, of course you know it's the difference between playing pool a Billiards pool and just hitting the ball and something goes in and you say, look, something went in. Yeah, you have to call it out ahead of time. You have to say here is what I'm doing I'm building a business that does this.

This is what you can expect. Everything's at. You know there's risk associated to everything. Etc But this is the kind of business that I'm in.

or this is what this uh, piece of art looks like or or is valued at. Etc and the more, you can be transparent ahead of time and then stick to what it is that you're doing. Then the outcome then is you know, for everybody to benefit from? um, parting shot. What have we not talked about in this time together that you'd love for people to know about you? The World Blockchain, Vero Creativity Subscription or all of the above? I Guess if if there's a parting thought, it's we're building, we're building for better.

We're not here. Um, you know, saying we have all the answers or we're building an alternative platform That is the platform that will take over from every other platform. Absolutely, We want it to be one of the biggest platforms uh, in in the world right now and to be an alternative, right? Why not to be a viable alternative? But what we are doing is we're coming from a place that says look, things have been done in a certain way up to now and we think that it's one-sided. It's a win on one side.

We're always trying to create a win-win a win-win But for creators, for the users of a platform, for the platform itself, and for everybody to join and be able to whoever does decide to make a move and come over to our platform, they get to have a winning. you know it's funny and I by the way I Look, my favorite word in the world is and instead of or favorite but I will say one thing. I I Am fascinated By how much value I Do think people get from free social networks that have an ungodly amount of human beings consuming? you know I Think it. You know we talk about a Charlie demilio or Logan Paul but Jesus there is a very long tale of human beings hundreds of thousands yes, who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

B being influenced on any platforms that cost them nothing. Sure, right? I think what's exciting is I Really don't think it's as one-sided I Really? don't I think it's more of a game of and than one-sided I I For example, immediately interested in the concept of having one of my platforms guarantee that all you know I would rather have Vero is a compliment to all my other social and I have a lot of social. Yeah, sure, right. Of course I'm sitting here and thinking and I'm like I'm getting so I'm like hey I better sign up now.

So I have to pay the subscription fee. Let me give them get a little microarbon but I'm like you know what? this is gonna be awesome. It's kind of like how I use Community the text message service. Sure, um I'm like I'd love to have one social network that only has a million.

This is my standards only a million. The others have more because not everyone listening actually wants to see actually every piece for me. They're fine following me, but they prefer it right. and I do a lot of different stuff line and jets and this, but that'd be really cool.

That's like something I actually need I need need one place where I know all eight hundred thirty seven thousand are definitely going to see this because I'm getting guaranteed delivery. That makes a ton of sense. It's why I continue to have an email service and it's why I have Community the text service right? Exactly. So looking forward to checking out for myself everybody.

you should check out Vero Vero Yeah, uh and like in the app store? that's how it is. Yeah in the App Store in the Android store and uh, we have an iPad app and a desktop app for some data. So I know a bunch of you, especially the Instagram crew of 2018 I know a bunch of you might actually have this on your phone because you were on it for like a hot minute. Uh, would love to hear from everybody.

Hit me up on Twitter at Garyvee on your feedback on this and or or do you think the social world will be in a five ten year window? subscription only? Uh the way it is now and no subscription Services come to the top 10 or DC it the way we've talked about here with and where there is a subscription player and there is and look only fans Patreon right sub stack like there is literally content being made that people pay for. And so um, and and in your world, it's actually the person that's making it that's paying it, Paying right? The subscription? No. Actually. so everybody gets to.

Everybody pays a small fee, and that way it makes it sustainable. The idea though of marrying it with this um, tokenized Stock Exchange is that everybody also gets a piece of benefits. Put the uh, blockchain to the password above a lot of people's pay grade in the short term, but will become normalized soon in the in. The step one though, I'm not down.

I Mean, as you can imagine, I'm very excited about what you're talking about there. Um, everyone pays eventually. Hasn't happened yet as I heard from you. That's right, anybody that signs up pays yes, but pays a very small amount understood as opposed to and is there any different Dynamic if you're a high volume creator of output or does that happen because of the second and everything.

Yeah. So if you're if you're bringing a ton of traffic, yeah, we're not going to charge you more of course, or anything like we're posting more or posting more or access to more people. Because right now you're posting, but you're only gaining access to about three percent of your audience. In our case, you gain 100 access to them.

What about virality? Yeah, Framework is based on emails. Don't go viral You I just aged us. Yeah, the kids don't folks. Uh boy kids.

No in the late 90s? Yeah. like pre-social networks. If you got people used to send random funny emails to their entire dress book and then people would send it like email was like early social. Like you would actually forward reply all forward.

Anyway, back to the point. so cool. But a lot of people have benefited by having no audience going on. Tick Tock posting and then boom 800 000.

That's been very beneficial to them. Is there a viral component to Barrow that? Yeah. I think you're talking about Discovery and Discovery is something that we're So we're building it step by step and Discovery is absolutely something that we're building into it. So if you're somebody whose content is being seen by a lot of people and is having a great reaction when you're in a discovery mode, you can go and discover that kind of content and then you just discover the new creative not in your core feed because you've chosen, you only choose who goes into that.

By the way, that's how Social started. totally. it's obviously evolved into an AI driven Discovery Model and clearly is effective because people do like passive. Discovery Sure, but to your point I I can speak for myself I Am actively still a person that has to rely on email and my, you know, two one two nine, three one five seven three one.

sign up now because I need a place that quote unquote guarantees it because if I want to post something that I want everybody to know about and I post it on social I gotta work super hard to make that creative as which is almost inherently impossible. You want people to know every single time selling so it's really interesting stuff. brother. Thank you so much! Thanks for having me foreign.