When people say Gary do you think the Creator economy is that I'm like brother newspapers are being sold today Newspapers I work for one and by the way, I don't say that as a Raz I say that nothing becomes dead. It finds its new equilibrium. We don't sell as many newspapers as we did in 1950 because a lot more attention is put into the phone and the television and the radio and all these other things that came along. but the newspaper used to be 5 cents you know I looked the other day I was kind of in the airport like damn, newspaper's gotten pretty exp.

and I get it it comes. You got to find your equilibrium to run a viable business against the cost and demand. And but like this concept of debt is silly, attention is the number one asset bner. Nation How are you super excited about talking about the history of the internet and social media? Uh, always think that the lessons of the past give us previews to the Future Uh, so I'm excited to introduce author Taylor to Uh to the show.

So Taylor why don't you tell everybody who you are, the name of the book, and why you wrote it and then let's jam into it. Yeah, um, my name is Taylor Loren I'm a technology columnist at the Washington Post Um, and I wrote this book extremely online. Uh, because I wanted to sort of talk about the first 20 years of the Social Web So it's really about the Rise um of social media and the content creator industry. Um, it sort of tells the rise of social media through the lens of you know, these big content creators that really shaped the internet and these platforms.

What do you think is the biggest? So actually let me take to the audience audience as a lot of you know, like this has become a real thing and obviously I also wrote a book There it is if you're watching visually crush it which talked a lot about this YouTube Twitter thing might lead to people being able to make a living online. and I Remember reading the early reviews on Amazon and people like this is crazy. Nobody's gonna make $50,000 a year being themselves online and to think where we are all these years later. You know what do you think Most people misunderstand about creators and influencers from a general public standpoint.

Yeah, I mean I Think people just that that like it has the worst reputation you know? I Think people just think oh, it's really easy. you're just taking selfies all day. You know how hard is it to generate content? I Could you know YouTube My Life or whatever. it's actually incredibly incredibly hard.

You've got to be a great. Storyteller It's an enormous amount of work, you know. even if you're just editing stuff. um, and so I yeah I Just think it gets a little bit maligned.

I Think people don't realize that these content creators are actually sort of real entrepreneurs. Yeah, I mean I think you know Donnie Osmond or Manuto or New Kids on the Block right? or Samantha from who's the Boss like there was. There's an acceptance that there's been teen stars in our culture prior to the mature internet, but the size and scale and what is not deemed as a skill to your point. I Don't think people understand at Vayer Media we call it sock strategic organic content.

There is like deep analytics to what time you post what is the best feature that you can use right now like a two, a two image or video carousel. Right now on Instagram is outperforming a regular Reals video. you know? uh, being first on a Tik Tok or a musically five years ago is going to have more opportunity and upside of growth than today. So the strategy of understanding consumer Behavior The thumbnail.

the headline: the copy: the business development of doing collabs with the right people at the right time negotiating with big Brands to do brand deals I mean there It is truly a high level of Entrepreneurship But because the numbers are lucrative and often not always the people are young. There's this subconscious disrespect for the craft. Yes, yes, 100% yes. and I talk also in the book too about sort of like the industry itself, it was sort of pioneered with people outside of the sort of mainstream media system.

Um, I Actually talked about the rise of mommy bloggers and kind of how they you know, advertise and commodify themselves and then early YouTubers And so I think just a lot of people have written it off H It reminds me when I first started writing about the internet how people used to say you know, oh, why you cover YouTube it's just a site for cat videos, you know? Um, and of course that's just not true anymore. And I think most people wouldn't say that today, but it's reminiscent of how they talk about Tik Tok right? Like oh, the Teen Dance app and it's like, well, these platforms there so much more than that, you know? Um, but I think people just still haven't there. Yeah, there's just not that level of sort of like what you know. It made sense to me because I obviously grew up in the game.

It made sense to me when people said that about Facebook and Twitter because they didn't have a comp, right? Myspace sold very early Friendster Couldn't stay up. You know, Why do you think today that that not everyone and it's evolving and you see that it's evolving but that many in the general public even though they've seen YouTube Twitter Facebook You know, snap, You know have longevity. Be meaningful. Businesses go public run.

You know real businesses have real Revenue Why do you think people you know? Inevitably, you know this. Taylor Like in the next 24 to 72 months a new app will pop up and it will be destined to be one of those things. and I kind of believe and I sense that that's where you were going. That again, people will be dismissive and say oh, that's just for people wanting to play games or like that's only for people who can write or you know, like that's only for radio personalities if it's an audio thing.

Like why why with seven to 10 meaningful examples now um, that rise from youth to full mainstream do you think people continue to be dismissed I Mean when I was yelling about Tik Tok it was on the back of Instagram and snap and and I just thought that people would understand. And yet even the people that were on Instagram and winning as influencers probably spent a year or two too late to jump into Tik Tok to get all the good attention. Why do you? What is that inuman behavior that continues to allow them to be dismissive of obvious results? Yeah, I mean I Think a lot of people are just overwhelmed by technology and they don't want to feel like they have to learn a new app. You know they want to just sort of dismiss it a lot of times.

As you mentioned, these things are adopted by young people, which people are inherently dismissive of. Especially young girls. You know, like teen girls, they can make an app hugely viral, but you know a lot of people are just like ah, it's just a silly little you know kids app. So I think it's sort of a combination of those two things.

It's just a lot of. It's just Tech fatigue of like oh I don't want to have to learn Oh now I've got to learn Tik Tok You know, and it's like, well, maybe you know if you want to take advantage of it. Yeah, for there's so many content creators, there's so many entrepreneurs. There's so many Fortune 500 Executives Listening to this interview right now.

What? What do you think is the biggest value from the book? Like what do you? What do you think they get out of it and what do you if you want to double click into any part of the book like when I when I set it up that way and you recognize the size and scale and the and the and who is in the audience listening to this right now it you know what is the value prop for them? Yeah, well. I think there's so many business lessons in this book I mean one thing that my book talks about is sort of these mistakes that these Silicon Valley um, platforms made actually in sort of misunderstanding their user base misjudging their creator. There's a ton of unreported information about the end of Vine actually, and sort of the implications that it has even for Twitter today. I Think Musk is learning a lot Of the same lessons that the founders of Vine learned the hard way.

Um, so I Think it's a great book for any kind of anyone that wants to be entrepreneurial. Um, because it also talks about the rise of this sort of um, simultaneous industry, right? the content creator industry and how people sort of worked outside the Realms of Silicon Valley and elsewhere to kind of start their own businesses, build their own Brands and in really interesting, unique ways. Um I Think this whole the way that social media emerged and the stories that have been told. um, it sort of hasn't told that other side of it of the user side.

So I think you just I Think you can learn so much about kind of even just where things are going in Tech and media because that's also what the book is all about. And and how many people have you spoken to that have read the book like I'm talking like friends and family and just like random. Like, what would you say Roughly at this point, probably about a hundred people at this point, so that's perfect. I Was hoping it was that kind of number.

What do you think stands out like what? What have you been? Because given that you know, I've written six or seven books now and I'm always, it's always so fun to be like oh man, I wasn't even like like you know you talk to like 20 people and like seven of them like man I Really like the thing about the canoe and I'm like what you don't even remember because you know this, it's a forever process and I'm like the canoe yeah on page 19 and you go back and you're like wow, that's the thing Have you had that moment? Is there any anything that you'd be surprised by or what has stood out to those hundred people? I continually I'm surprised by this actually because what you described is exactly what's been happening. Um, a lot of people are really surprised at how these companies were founded. like they assumed that YouTube always was going to be what it was. They didn't realize it started as a dating site for instance.

or you know they didn't They didn't realize that like the way that Twitter Evol I Think a lot of people have this mythology in their head around these businesses and this is why I think it's such a good read because it really gets into lots of businesses in one book. You know there's the YouTube book. there's the Instagram book. There's a Facebook book.

I'm like, okay, those are great books, but you can just read this book. that sort of has like the sort of the key takeaways of all these platforms including Snapchat. As I mentioned, the live streaming Boom. What made you now successful at that? You know time in the mid-2010s How did they lose market share? So yeah and people have gravitated to those little their little things like you now is another one.

They're like oh yeah I forgot about that I didn't know people made it living and what that did to sort of twitch and so yeah, it's more. it's more just like a lot of like random unexpected little yeah. Makes sense given that you're a journalist given that you've been in this obviously. I've watched your career blossoming as someone who kind of like tries to really pay attention to like I've always thought you've done a good job and so I'm really curious about this question.

Then this is one woman subjective point of view. This isn't fact for you. as you go through the history of this last 25 years or so. Whatever it is.

15, 20, 25 Which app or platform are you personally like? Disappointed? didn't make it or isn't in the top five today? Good or or or you could take another track. You're most surprised that it didn't make it. You understand why because you've done the research, but you're most still surprised or tell people a story of like why it should be here and what the one one bad move was that changed the course of it. Yeah, um well, you know it's it's that's such a great question.

There's a few obviously. Vine I I'm a millennial I grew up on Vine It makes me so sad that the way that app was sort of mismanaged that was that was sold incredibly quickly, right? That was within launch pre-launch to Twitter Yeah, yeah. and then Twitter mismanaged it I mean I think Vine could have really rivaled Tik Tok like Vine Vine was the preview to Tik Tok Exactly, you couldn't have Vine without Tik Tok I Also have to say Gary Snapchat like Snapchat's been a surprising one where you know it had so much hype and it was ascendant. and then they really also kind of shot themselves in the foot.

they to creaters Let's double click into that yeah Snapchat today as you know because you covered a space continues to dominate messaging between the youth, right? Yeah yet so many of these 17y olds will literally talk to all their friends. It is their core. It is like hey Elders without kids or even 20 even 30 year olds without kids Like this is where they text, not on WhatsApp and on you know iMessage you know Spotlight is sitting right down there one click away. Yeah, which for everybody at home that doesn't use it which is most by the way.

which is the point I'm getting at. That is basically in essence their feed their Tik Tok their Instagram and you and I know because we do this for a living. The content in there is very similar to the content that is in Tik Tok and Instagram. What? What do you think Snap is missing? or why isn't it have more? I Continue to believe that they could take 20% Market sh of the feed economy in a snap pun intended if they tweaked it a little bit.

What's your take on why the majority of people that consume Instagram and Tik Tok do not also consume I mean more of them consume YouTube shorts for the most into it, then snap Highlight: when it's sitting right there, they're already there. They're in the room, they're in the house, they're just not to the other living room. Why yeah, I mean I My book actually sort of talks about Evans's mismanagement of kind of or not I would say mismanagement. He made a series of decisions that I think sort of set them up to be in this difficult spot.

One, he insisted on separating that social experience and the media consumption experience I don't know if you remember I think it was 2017 or 2018 when he split the two and he sort of talked about that I think that was a mistake. Um, and you know even today I it's just they haven't he's They're sort of very antisocial in a way. like they don't lean into things that that think you're right like I am I watch it and I'm like my God you know you're shooting yourself in the foot They also alienated their whole first class of content creators. And yes, I know a lot of content creators.

are making big money on. you know, discover. Still, you know sometime some of them. but I mean that is because it's all supply and demand and the ones that are going hard in it, there's still plenty of attention.

It's just the majority of creators don't even think to go hard in it. exactly. Yeah. and I think that's because I think that's because of the company's history with the creators where they alienated and sort of, they didn't.

They had a very hostile relationship with creators for a while. I mean that whole first generation of Snapchat creators. They didn't want those people on the platform. they wanted it to be about one to one IRL friends, close friends I Think that was a mistake.

Makes sense. What are you? Here's a fun one. I I'm sure this crosses your mind. what do you think the next snap Because kudos to them.

They built a great company. But to your point I think both of us kind of in our stomachs feel like there's more upside there. Um, what do you think the next snap Tik Tok Instagram is like what do you? What do you and this is like I mean if you really knew you'd be doing it right d you know what do you and I So I'm not asking you directly I'm actually talking more genre I Brought up earlier. Is it voice? Is it this Like where do you have any thoughts on the kind of thing that is kind of missing in the marketplace or what kind of aspects of the entrepreneur? Andor The app will be needed to be the next breakout app? Yeah or or finally I apologize because I really want to get this from you or the common thread of these 15 to 20 over the last 15 years that won it do with so much of the journalistic research you've done.

Is there any common theme? or is it too contextual moments in time, blah blah blah yeah. Um, there's a few. There's a few sort of answers. Um, number one.

I Think just in terms of where things are going. One thing that seems interesting to me is a lot of there. There keeps being these sort of like I think desire for sort of simultaneous ephemeral experiences. like whether it's voice like a clubhouse room or rip or like Twitter spaces and stuff or even just something like be real Where it's sort of about this like simultaneous online experience.

um I think a lot of people even like a Tik Tok live right, it sort of fulfills that need. Um so I Don't know if we'll see like a separate app or like feature sets building into that, but that definitely seems to be like a desire from users. I Think for anyone looking to make the next big social app, you're going to have a lot of competition. Uh, because you know? look Tik Tok had to spend a billion in marketing alone in 2019 on you know app downloads just to really kind of compete against Facebook and Google Um, but I think there's a lot more room for small Niche apps and people want to spend more time with like sort of restricted communities.

That's why you see more people moving into like Discord and these group chat platforms. Um, so that's yeah, that's interesting I I Would also just say like another lesson from my book like the one like a big lesson that I learned from. sort of like watching these companies rise and fall is to be flexible. Like be flexible because these Founders they never understood, sort of like or predicted how their Um products would end up being used and it's really the founders that could kind of like roll with it instead of be like well, no, but I built the business for this or I want people to be be sharing this way.

why aren't they doing that instead of being by the way I'm sorry to jump in rolling with it. Everyone is adjusting to the reality. Yes, it's called being consumer Centric You know I think Taylor's point is well taken. Uh, we've talked a little bit about, you know, and by the way, Ev's conviction Uh, Evan Spiegel's conviction is also how he got there in the first place.

right? Like it's like your gift is your curse at times, right? And so having that conviction up front tends to get you there. really. Taking a step back and adjusting to the reality of consumer Behavior becomes a whole new uh, skill set. It's C it's counter punching.

You know it's it's it's like Floyd Mayweather more than Mike Mike Tyson potentially gets you there. It's like you have conviction of what you're doing and then as you get into the later rounds aka the app is a little more mature, you're seeing what consumers are doing with it. Now you're kind of rolling with the punches early. Twitter Uh, anecdote for that is early Twitter Um, the retweet concept was RT Colon and you would control copy what somebody would say.

Twitter's team and those early days saw that created the retweet button. You know it's it's trying to eliminate friction from from your consumer or be okay with who's using your product. Right back to consumer goods: Christal The champagne. You know really hurt its business by saying their champagne was for a certain demo and they had to feel the ramifications of that.

You know, when you're an app, you know Creator adjusting to what's actually happening to your point Nobody Knows the YouTube dating part and then the next year because I was there in 2006 was pirated content. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was all family, It was all the Simpsons and you know and and late night television. So these things evolve. Yeah, 100% And I Think it's as you mentioned, it's really hard, especially if you are an entrepreneur where you built this product because you want it.

you know, like to fulfill your need or something right and like you're like whoa. Here's this whole other user base that I never even expected. So yeah, that was a big lesson because the companies that didn't evolve that way failed very quickly. Yeah, that makes sense.

What? um what's most interest? What are you most curious about? Like what's of the second? because I you know, obviously. look everybody who's listening I think you know what why I Like having authors on is like it's just hard to get indepth. I Mean right now one of the biggest issues in America is headline reading and jumping to conclusions. So you know I'm famously not a great reader and I don't tend to read a lot of books and I'm and I don't really what I do is I'm more audio I listen I look for social cues.

The way I publicly speak is reacting to the audience, but for so many of you listening, book form is a monster and to me I still think books I'm almost blown away by this. It seems funny because it's so normalized, but like the depth of content you get in book form for what ends up being normally under 20 bucks on Amazon is like pretty profound. So people that want to do the homework I think a lot of you know I believe the best way to predict the future is to know the past and so I think you know Taylor Putting this all together in one place and grounding it is is something worth um, exploring. Uh I think will be valuable for you but knowing that that's a history context play while you're on the podcast? What about right now? What's kind of like what's intriguing to you? Like what are you like? uhoh, there's some smoke over there I Need to do more homework? Like what are you excited to do homework on as we close out this year? Whether it's an app or a genre of apps or creators or or anything really in technology Yeah.

I mean I'm just really interested in kind of seeing Tik Tok mature obviously and kind of the business. the revenue models I Think Now there's this understanding of like, okay, creators need to get paid and these platforms have sort of acknowledged it and so they're all rolling out these different Revenue options and I think it's maturing in a really interesting way. As you mention, YouTube shorts is really T you know, taken off in certain ways and so I think certain people are monetizing just through that. So I'm just looking more at the revenue streams and seeing like okay, how are people building these businesses of the future and how much of it are they relying on the platforms I think increasingly people are not relying on the platforms right? They're doing the merch lines and the product lines and things that are not necessarily tied to advertising.

Um, but it'll see also I think the strike the the strike right now happening in Hollywood is gonna have a big effect on the entertainment industry I think it's a huge opportunity for people that make content on the internet to be honest. um, especially next year when there's not going to be a lot of programming. So um, yeah, those are things I I'll also just say one other thing. Gary I'm also not a good like I I like Fast reads I try to make the biggest compliment and that's the one thing that I would say.

All the people everyone I've talked to they say it's a fast read and it's a quick I I tried to make the chapters kind of bite-sized I do have an audiobook version um because I'm the same way I'm like just give me the info like I don't need all this sort of like fluff around it. Let's talk about author life for actually I have two questions. one actually let me get to my I'll end with author life because there's a lot of aspiring authors that I wanted. Um I apologize till is this your first book? Yes yes it is great so that will make it even more fun.

I'll get to that in a second. Taylor What is the practicality of the dream that I dreamed and it was really not a dream. it was the observation I made in 200 um uh when did I write this book 20 7 2008 when I wrote crushit 2007 I wrote it came out an '08 What is the realistic nature of the practicality of somebody making $50,000 a year being a Creator around their favorite thing in the world Texas Longhorn Football uh raspberry jam Checkers um The Smurfs You know how you know we talk about the the Charlie demillies the Logan these are Mr be these are Big Enterprises that is cool and amazing and I'm here for that life. I'm incredibly intrigued by the 11 year olds at home today who are destined to live a life where they were going to just do something they didn't fully love to pay the mortgage.

You know there's stuff that I'm passionate about with my content which is like the money like can you find like to be happy and that comes in so many shapes and sizes? How practical is it in today and going forward as this continues to grow the longtail of creators for people to find. You know, a salary that is manageable to live within 40 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110,000 a year income but joy for days because it's about coin collecting and that's their like. in essence, the hobby becoming the profession. Because of this infrastructure.

How real is it today? How real is it in the future from someone who's done a lot of work to research it? Yeah I mean look, it's more competitive today. Uh, I would say than 2007 Or8, but we also have a lot more tools you don't need as big of an audience. Um, you know there's a lot more Revenue options today. So I I think it is practical I mean look you, you're you have to build a media business So you have to ask yourself, can I build a media business around this thing that I love And a lot of people can and there there there just continues to be opportunity on the internet I Have to laugh because there's this cycle every two years when people say oh, the influencer industry is dead The Creator economy is dead.

Media media is not getting less newspapers are still being printed. Yeah, that's true When people say G Do you think the Creator economy is that I'm like brother newspapers are being sold today. Newspap I work for one? Yeah, like and by the way I Don't say that as a Raz I say that nothing becomes dead. It finds its new equilibrium.

We don't sell as many newspapers as we did in 1950 because a lot more attention is put into the phone and the television and the radio and all these other things that came along. but the newspaper used to be 5 cents. newspapers are you know I looked the other day I was kind of in the airport like damn newspapers gotten pretty exp and I get it it becomes a you got to find your equilibrium to run a viable business against the cost and demand. And but like this concept of debt is silly.

it's so silly. it's so silly. and again, we are getting more and more online every year. Media is getting more and more digital every year.

So I you know I think yes I do I Definitely think there's a lot of opportunity and um on the on the internet in terms of building content around what you love. Let's finish with this. to the other side, more people always say Gary why do you write books? You're all digital like because people read them you know, like like yes I like the opportunity in digital but I also like the S I hate TV commercials as a medium but I love the Super Bowl because that one I think actually gets consumed so like it all just comes down to actual consumption. and there's an awful lot of books being read.

So to that point, no be vulnerable. Like how much do you want the book to be commercially successful out of just being competitive and wanting it to do well or or what other goals or what have you been surprised about going through this journey as a first-time author? Obviously, being a journalist, you know it's probably been in the back of your mind forever. Will I ever do it? Will I do it. How will I do it? Talk to me about first the vulnerability of it which is like if it does well if it doesn't do well, getting on lists commercially successful like that part and then number two given that I'm assuming.

but correct me if I'm wrong. If you're someone who becomes a journalist, writing a book is always in the back of your mind and what was the biggest surprise going through the first one? Yeah, well. I you know I I care about the setting. Sort of like getting the history out of the internet.

I I Think every journalist we write about the things we write about because we're incredibly passionate about them. So everything I wrote in my book. these are things that I'm really passionate about. This was an internet that I lived through I did so much reporting.

so I just want people to I'm like guys. As you mentioned before, there's actually crazy amount of information in this book and as a journalist I want that information out there I want as many people to read it as possible I do not care about credentialism I very anti- credentials and getting on Oh I made the list or whatever I already wrote for the New York Times I work there for years I Don't care about you know Silly lists at all and no one should. These are all silly. Everyone can be a bestseller today.

Look, go look at. Amazon you can be the best seller in every category. That's silly I just want people to read the book, love it, and and talk about it because I really love to talk about these things and I want more people to kind of engage with these things and take it Ser at at a deeper level instead of saying yes or no yeah because because again, because there's this rich and crazy and truly untold history behind a lot of this stuff and and people see the success and they say oh yeah, well it probably took off because of this. No, there was like there was this whole other.

You know, like talk a lot about these like debates and the founders and just it's There's so much more to the story than a lot of people know. So I yeah, I mean I I wrote the whole book. So I want people to read it. And what about the biggest surprise? Even though surprise? Well, it was it.

Um, you know. Honestly, it was trying to. it was trying to whittle it down. There was so much information just trying to like.

Get you know, get it through, keep it moving. Even though you were accustomed to do that for an article, this was at such a different scale. Such a different scale. Such different scale.

but um, but no I mean I've yeah, as a journalist you like to, you sort of think about it in the back of your head but I didn't want to waste I didn't want to do what a lot of people do in journalism which is just sort of do like essentially what could have been an article as a book you know because they want to expand out I was like if I'm going to do a book like I want it to pack so much in in such a short time so that people you know really kind of get it because that's what I want out of books myself like I'm like just get it in as much as possible because we don't have a lot of time you know these days. No. I've heard Taylor Thank you so much Congrats! Good luck, thanks for having me! yeah.