Do you know what bugs the out of me? This is the killer reach and not defining it as potential reach and assuming it's actualized reach, it destroys me. It's garbage data. It completely takes common sense and a pulse of culture off the table. It kills me and we talk about it as if it's true.

One question: an amazing lineup of CEOs Founders and experts. This is marketing for the now. Attention is the number one asset. Hey Gary I thought I saw you walk by I am here I late.

Everybody let me apologize for you. Don't need to apologize because you know what I was giving. Not Not to you because I know we're family and I feel comfortable. I'm talking about Chris S on LinkedIn and Jessica Knight on LinkedIn and Danne weathers on LinkedIn and Cody Weaver on LinkedIn.

So um, I just needed to apologize to them. Excellent. Well I'm GNA just let you guys riff because Diana has a lot to share and uh, we can't wait to hear it. No pleasure Diana How are you? I'm good.

how are I am I am Well it's nice I've seen you three times now in the last like six weeks. This is exciting I know I know and you know we have a call later. So so let's go right into it. Like knowing your background um, being fond of your work feel that you actually have you know for everybody's watching.

I Do feel like the more senior you get in these big corporations, it becomes more challenging I don't R I'm empathetic. It gets harder to be closer to the pulse to the street. Um, but I think you've done a really nice job watching you from afar and so answer this question directly like what do you on this brand forance like how do people balance brand building and performance from your perspective yeah I think you know not to be contrarian I just have a different viewpoint on of it and I actually don't think these things are two separate things I don't either I approach as when I heard you at the CMO Summit and like no notice balancing like I believe balancing is could be looked at two different ways to your point opposites or actually the purple. Yeah, so they complement each other.

and if you really think about it and what we try to do with the brands that I work on, the team that I have at Colgate P model like I have the privilege of leading what we call the Consumer Experience and growth team which means nothing to anyone. but really, what we've done is rethought about what marketing for the future for now in this complex consumer driven environment really means. And so we put the consumer at the center of everything. So what does that mean? So my team has Revenue Growth management, insights, data, and Advance analytics but also some of those traditional um CMO elements that you would think of when it comes to digital Commerce or brand building or creative or social or um, just traditional media.

and the reason why we did that is is a consumer experience is just not about brand love. It's not about you know, actually experiencing the product. Uh, it's not just about seeing an ad that you fall in love with. It really is the entire touch point.

So from when I get the product at the zero Moment of Truth and I'm in consideration all the way to the second Moment of Truth where I actually experience the product which is really where you drive and build. Brands Um, all of those touch points matter and how we make that experience more exceptional and what are the jobs to be done so that we really build the brand? You know at Colgate we have brands that are 27 year old like Colgate toothbrush which you all know and love and are have in your shelves. but we also have newer Brands like hello which is a very designed forward brand countertop friendly but really thinks about the consumer experience at every single touch point. So a long way of say saying every every touch point in marketing is performance driving.

Every touch point in marketing should be brand building. and if you don't think about it that way then you're not thinking from a human or a consumer lens. Why explain to all the people that are watching? Because what normally happens is like I'm looking at the chat right now. We're doing this on LinkedIn exclusively today.

This is obviously gonna be on my podcast. We're gonna cut this up and chop this up and put it everywhere. Explain: You know. obviously the corporate people are going to understand this but go down into the trenches of the audience.

I'm seeing here explain to people why corporations because your statement makes so much sense I Came from small business and startup land. Why have big Market organizations the Fortune 00s Why? Why are they not consumer? Centric Why are they Academia Centric Or corporate Centric I I I Don't think the large. So my sweet spot is a 1002 200 year old company. That's my.

That's where I come into play. and I Don't think that they're not consumer Centric I Think it's an end. They're consumer. Centric But when you're a big ship and you've been around that long to be able to be around for another 200 years, you have to make sure that you're You know from a finance standpoint that you have smart accounting principles that Legal is your best friend.

When you're a larger brand, you become a legal. Target So all of those things create another lever. I Think it's how you think and approach them. So my best friends at work my head of legal my CFO HR as well too because you can't get the right talent for your roles without that.

and I Think right now, a lot of folks approach them, especially in marketing teams as oh, we got to get around legal or oh, you know, we got to try to convince the CFO that this is a good idea rather than bringing them along for the journey. So at the end of the day, what does the CFO want? What do even I want I want to get my bonus? we want to deliver, um, a profit back to Um, you know our investor community so how do we do that? Well, we create these brand experiences so really, being able to link and connect the two uh is important and understanding the flexibility that we need in a P&l to to be able to move at the speed of culture, you just have to bring your CFO folks along. And then legal plays such a critical role, especially in a social environment wanting to be in the moment of culture? Uh, working with your legal partner so you can do it in a in a way that actually protects your Brands and allows you to do things that are appropriate and don't open you up. uh, for litigation.

So it's not that they're not brand obsessed, it's that the bigger you get, you know they say More Money More Problems The bigger you get, the more that you have to be thoughtful about maintaining a position. And I would say the last thing that is really critical for larger companies that they have to work on. When you have a large company, it's just like being in a big family. You have workers in the factory, you have workers across multiple markets, and you want to make sure that you don't make decisions that risk their livelihood as well too.

The stakes are higher, so that's really what's driving some of the extra layers that you have to maneuver through when you're in a bigger Corporation The thing that I'm curious about from your perspective is the extra layers lead to less speed. right? Water down. Those those were not as big of an issue in a small in a slower world. Yes, when your competitors were also spending six months to put out a commercial, you know that's one thing.

But obviously for example, Colgate we all know it. We all love it. Like in there's been a lot of innovation. Yeah, in your space.

and those smaller entrepreneurs with the you know the advantages of being able to be in retail or have the money to do, media have changed a lot. In a world where Shopify can represent a Shopify store can represent the ability to reach consumers the way being in all the Walmarts used to or that social can now represent what commercials did. What? What are you know? Knowing that you in that sweet spot have been around 200 year old companies? What do you think? The best big companies? What's the best behaviors that you've seen from big companies to actually get good at? Um, the nimbleness needed to be great at building brand and getting performance. I I Tell this to son and it's the same thing.

I approach business with you can't be a me too, you can't go after. Hey the small guys do it this way. No, you've got to own your own space. so we are typically in most categories.

we in there. Incumbent: We do have smaller um know you know disruptor brands that we're also building. but if you but specifically focus on those incumbent Brands leverage the scale those smaller Brands They would love the brand loyalty, the scale, the fact that you know Colgate itself is the number one household pen rent in the planet. Like that's not a low-key brag that those are just facts and so to have that brand love to play with? so yes, can they move with speed in certain areas that I cannot.

That is true. But what? I have to work with from an already emotional connection with my consumer Um, advocacy and um, consumer Love that you know when I have a brand like Fabuloso before I can even put something on social. We had people dress up like fabuloso for Halloween this year and send that to us. So there are intangible things that we have that are different and you got to play to your strengths and your skill set.

And if you try to focus on hey I need to operate like you know the startup Brands then you just look like the old dude in the club like you really have to think about. okay, what is ownable for my brand? where should I play and then how as the bigger brand do I help grow the category itself and I think if you understand your responsibilities as the larger incumbent brand and you play them well, I I will tell you there's a lot of space in these categories. Consumers love choice and you'll enable them to make the choice that is right for them. I Think the other thing that large brands have and especially that we have at Colgate is the efficacy of our product delivering.

at the end of the game, the end of course, and knowing that the biggest way to build Brands is to have an incredible brand experience and to have that be scienced back the way it is by us knowing that every time the consumer is going to get that experience that they're looking for, That's that's when you really win or lose. So it's how you place those bets and Investments But no, I'm not going to be able to see something relevant in the C culture and then post something five minutes later. But what we were able to do with the Met Gala When we saw that the carpet looked like you know Colgate toothpaste, we were able to get something up and out the door in an hour which is of SP more than fast enough. A company that you know we play with I Love you I Hope you have a great day.

Great end of the year. Have a good Thanksgiving Thanks for coming on. Fantastic! We've got a new friend up next G You've got Janelle Tavis who runs Bugaboo which is one of my favorite Brands uh in North America and I didn't realize it's a Dutch based she gonna? yeah, she's gonna lay it down for us. Give us a little some Global insights as well.

Welcome Janelle Amazing! Thank you for having me! This is actually our first time meeting Gary so it's such a treat to be here. Thank you! I uh thank you I uh I uh know the brand very well so I'm pretty pumped you're here. Why don't you tell the people that might not be in that life cycle about the brand for a minute or two and then we'll get the JY But thank you for being here? Yeah, Amazing! So I'll set the stage a little bit for sure before I came to Bugaboo I actually spent nearly a decade at Nike and I think whether you sell strollers or you sell sneakers, it was really interesting to hear you and Diana but I think what the great Brands actually really do is put the consumer at the center and what we do at Bugaboo that consumer is the new parent. So Bugaboo is a parenting Solutions brand and as you said, we're best known for for our high performance and Innovation strollers and uh European founded.

So our our design team and our Innovation team actually sit out of the Netherlands and I look after the the US and Canadian business so it's a real honor to be here. Thank you for the people that like Drive luxury cars or you know like it is it is the Rolls-Royce of of strollers. Um and being a New York City parent, you need a really strong machine and so I'm um talk to me about this. I'm actually genuinely curious.

Um about because I think Dan is right about like performance and brand shouldn't be separate. It's more of the gray of the black and white, but most marketing organizations are structured with it being like brand over here. Performance over here. How do y all think about it And what's your current state of the union? On what you feel inside, about the challenges or the opportunities in performance, the challenges and the opportunities in doing bigger brand work that creates affinity.

And how do you think about this ju's position? Yeah, such a good question. So again I want to I want to pull us back? Um because I think the first thing that any any great brand should do and what I would offer to the room of CEOs and Founders and Executives. Watching this today is really just to first start off with putting your consumer in the center and understanding where is your consumer coming from, how are they finding you and then also most importantly, where are the gaps and then you can decide then whether or not you want to spend that Dollar on a brand awareness building campaign or a performance campaign. So again just to to give you an actual example of how we see it at Bugaboo As as I mentioned before in the setup, Bugaboo is a a Dutch design company on the other side of the pond in Europe really strong brand awareness Deep Roots But then when you come over here to the US right we're We're actually seeing really incredible growth the last three years.

But when we pulled a room of 100 expecting parents I mean I'm so happy that you're familiar with the brand because it was actually singled digit awareness You think I'm sorry to interrupt? Yeah, you know on the awareness front cor correct me if I'm wrong. It is a premium product Yes, 100% Yes, it's a premium product that any parent can tell you I mean I'm also a New York a New York mom that you can really tell the difference in when you're pushing down you know the streets of the Upper West Side and it's pouring rain and you got to get to Z Bars and fill the the under seat basket with groceries. I mean you need a performance ride and even if you're not a New York parent if you are, you live in Suburbia You're going to want a stroller that folds really easy and you can throw in the back of by the way by the way that that little rant you had about Upper East Side Zabar's Rain you need to clip that and you need to run that on Instagram Tik Tok and Facebook against New York City mom demo like that little clip right there I think would be one of your top Performance Brand Performance taking taking notes and all they need to do is just follow me in the day In the life of like trying to get my three-year-old and and and and ingredients and dinner on the table. so but that's that's exactly it.

So to go back to your question, what is what is that tension I think it just f it. It comes down to what is your consumer experiencing. How do you create emotional, storytelling and high quality content that resonates with the the problem that your consumer is wrestling with and therefore as a brand? this solution that you're offering and then you put dollars behind it in the spaces that you know that your consumer is the most. So for example, at Bugaboo we know that late 20s something year old, early 30s all the way up until now mid 40s starting to become first-time parents.

They're spending a lot of time on social media I know I Don't need to tell you this, so that is really where we want to show up in that part of the consumer Journey where they're researching or they're wondering, hey, what is everyone talking about? What is everyone wearing? The Facebook groups are just like such a a wealth of information for that expectant parent that really doesn't know what to do in this new chapter of their life. So I think you know. Just to kind of summarize it, it's one it's putting the consumer at the center can can I jump in there. Yeah, One thing we're obsessed at at Bner Xland that we don't see people doing in the broader marketing world is Consumer at The Center.

To your point: 27y old Upper West Side firsttime mom Young By New York standards coming from a third generation wealthy family versus 41-year-old firsttime. Mom Upper East Side Coming from the streets and her husband, her wife have made it already immediately have a very different psychographic reality. Yeah, how you know. Do you find it challenging like every other brand? I Speak to every day For the last decade and especially last three years of not being able to make enough creative at a good enough cost to be able to be relevant to as many different consumer at the Center in my mind.

for a brand even at the size of Bugaboo which is not Nike or Colgate but still a big brand? Yeah. 30, 40, 50, 60 different specific consumer segmentations to make up the customer. But creative is so expensive when you work with agencies or even internally is. When you think about Compu at the center, do you try to generalize it in one lump Or you think thinking in this cohort consumer segmentation model Yeah, it's such a good question.

And I think the short answer is is that as a brand, if you talk to everybody, you're you're actually talking to nobody. So you really have to be specific about who is our consumer. Muse Everything from their age demographic to the to the other brands that they like. Where do they live? Where do they shop? What are they looking for? So when we are creating content, yes, you create a profile of of the consumer that you're speaking to and that resonate outside of that.

But then you're making sure that you're being really focused. So at again at Bugaboo this is the new parent. at Nike it's the athlete. It's it's the it's the kid who's who's trying to start their first run or starting their first basketball game.

The new, the new. The thing. I'm fascinated by the challenge that I perceive you may have and others that are similar. The new pairing comes in so many shapes and sizes.

Yeah, But what we're actually finding is that whether to to paint that picture if they're the 2 seven-year old upper wests side parent or they are 40 something and they and they live in Oklahoma Actually their drivers are the same Yeah. but to stop them? Yeah to stop them scrolling to stop them on relevance to create the consumption of those tried and true is the thing I'm fascinated by I Couldn't agree with you more. Most humans when you bleed them down have the similar 10 things. My concern and obsession is getting permission for them to listen requires relevance and that's where it gets real different of what they need to see and hear.

Yeah, and we we struggle with the same thing. How do you stop the scroll? Yeah. and and stopping the scroll as you as you probably agree is not just even though we know it's the dominant Force Now that still is TV that still is a billboard that still is like it's still all of it. Stop The scroll is like a Omni battle right? Yeah! I Gotta say though, whatever your content is I'm always stopping my scroll because I think Amazing! Let's let's definitely collect now that I know you're in New York I'll ask and Andrea to set us up 100% would love that.

Thank you for having me Gary I Want give you one more second because I jumped in there a lot because I was F that what did we not touch on that you might have wanted to touch on or let people know. Uh, let's see if I think I would like to just I Mean let's just summarize all the great points that we talked about and leave your listeners with some takeaways. So um I think all great Brands They They actually do understand their consumer really well. Start with the insights.

Start start with a deep understanding of your consumer mindset, focus on emotional storytelling, connect your products into your consumer, and the last thing that I'll say um is make sure that you're all scoring off the same scorecard Because make sure that you have the same version of success on what you're trying to do. because as a marketer, you want to make sure that you align with Finance with sales on what that campaign Target is and just make sure that you have a singular metric of success in order to be successful. Love it! Thank you! Joe Thank you Gary Thanks Janelle All right Gary We have another new friend coming up. Kate Lamberton You might remember that Jim stangle and Kate did they authored this incredible article in Harvard Business Review That was all about brand format.

So we've got her here today to lay down all the insights and findings. Welcome! Kate Thank you so much! So happy to be here! Hi! Kate how are you I'm great, how are you? I'm well I'm super aware and so I'm gonna let you take the floor You wrote the manifesto while don't you? why don't you give everybody a little bit of your thesis observations? The things you're saying. Yeah, it's been really interesting to listen to your prior guests because I think we're all on the same page. Uh, from from the very opening where there is no division here to we need a metric that puts us on the same scorecard.

Exactly amazing. These people are brilliant and they're doing it in the real world. Um, it was really interesting because I was working a few years ago I teach among other things I teach in marketing to Wharton you know a thousand Wharton undergrads a year and I have this class on brand measurement. How are the kids today in marketing? Like like just for two seconds? Because this is fascinating to me.

Are they overly pot committed to Social and not thinking 360? Do they go into the academic environment? Maybe over indexing on over respecting some of yesterday even though they're living differently as consumers? Something in between. Everyone's different. What's the vibe, you know I think what's great about them is that they will ask questions about all of it. I Mean they're going to interrogate any claim you put in front of them and thank God right? because we've had a couple years of just honestly investment in Vapor right? Oh, this is the hot thing.

That's the hot thing and so what they actually want are Frameworks to Think Through the things Because the things are going to change. they're gonna keep changing and so it's not helpful to have a class on Tik Tok What's helpful is to have a class on how media works and how exposure and reach affect Behavior Then whatever the new thing is, they can analyze it. Is there gonna one more thing before? I Let you go of course. I Completely went against what I said.

but I've got you here. and I Gotta ask Reach. Do you know what bugs the out of me? Tell me something. I'm sure there are a couple things.

There are a couple things, but this is the killer reach and not defining it as potential reach and assuming it's actualized reach destroys me. Okay, it destroys me. It's garbage data in a lot of it's It's devastating. It completely takes common sense and a pulse of culture off the goddamn table.

It kills me. and we talk about it as if it's true. and and this is the kind of thing that I think performance marketers get focused on because they're given a dashboard and they're supposed to hit these numbers and it's not a meaningful number. it's just a number.

And once you have a number, then you chase it. Um, and I think this actually takes us back to this question of brand, right? Because what that reach means in the context of a strong or ascending brand is completely different than what it means. When your brand is is in is in garbage world, right? And so you know when we. when we talk about this stuff in research, it's an interaction.

The effect of X on y depends on Z right? So the effect of reach on any out any given outcome is going to depend on about five different things. Maybe 50 different things in fact. So on its own, it's It's not a meaningful metric. Um, but it's it's what gets used to sell a lot.

Um, and but again, that's what I Love these students. They will interrogate, they will push, they will chase, and I think that's a hopeful sign. Great, all right. go back to the manifesto.

What? Okay, okay, so Manifesto so so uh, I'm looking for brand measurements and most of the brand measurements I'm finding I'm like, how is that manager really useful Like that's fine. You can give me a brand ranking I don't know what to do with it right? and again these students are gonna push me if if I give them something like that so you know 60% of my class is Finance majors and they're like, what is how do how I put that on back I'm glad that Interbrand can tell me a value and put it on an asset sheet, but how do I then talk to anybody about it and so I ran across this company. Um, that does what I think is actually I don't want to plug but they I thought they were doing smarter things. Yeah, they do smarter things I'm sorry I didn't catch it called Bara B Um with brand measurement and tracking and connecting brand measurement to the equ, the measurement of brand Equity to both Upstream like upstairs consequences like things the CFO cares about Um and what's happening on the performance side and what's happening on the brand side.

and in talking to them, what became apparent was that if you don't have this bridging metric that connects performance to Brand, you actually everybody loses um because brand has an effect on the finance relevant Kpis through its enhancement of best case, what's happening in performance performance if it's being done well, will directly amplify the effect that brand has. The two of them then go into this metric and actually both of them can be accountable and both of them can have short and long-term effects that can be captured over time. Right now, what happens is people say performance is shortterm and it can be held accountable. Brand is longterm and we just have to wait.

Actually not. Actually both can be accountable and that's good news because both keep their piece of budget. But you need this bridging brand, this brand Equity metric or it's not really possible I totally I to couldn't I talk about it as purple right? I'm writing uh, a new book and the cover is purple because the thesis is if using the political structure in the US which is very contentious if the the world of marketing is red or blue, the Magic's in the purple. Yeah, I mean and it's also.

It's also though I think still understanding the distinctions right I wouldn't want to lose the red and the blue because they do different things right and so so you have this this metric and so theirs. They break it into familiarity, regard, meaning and uniqueness. And what's nice there is If you capture this and you see for example in an older brand say you're talking about one of these brilliant 200 year old Brands Familiarity is easy regard plenty as it ages, you got to build uniqueness right? So then what you can say is here's what performance When we do this performance action. Here's how uniqueness is changing and this is the part of the brand we need to work on.

So we need to select the performance that we can show a relationship to uniqueness. That's where our brand is right now. Before I Lose you. Why do you think so many people in in modern agencies and Brands struggle with relevance at scale? Oh, because it's it's almost.

It's very, very hard. I Mean it's incredibly hard. but I think it. What the the, the the trick and I'm not going to say there's an easy answer because there's not for any of this stuff or we don't have a job, but it's picking the the level at which the segmentation operates.

Um. For me, what is often underappreciated is that the segmentation criteria that matters the most is the information processing style that's in play at any moment. So when you guys were talking about the Upper East Side Upper West Side Mom Yes, of course, if you're trying to go to I want to give you an image that specifically resonates with you? Yeah, that's that's tricky. You got to use some behavioral day to match that up.

But if what you can say is both of these moms are when they're wrestling with their Bugaboo um, emotionally stressed, under time, pressure, etc etc you know a general class of of creative that's going to work for them. it's going to be quick hit. Simple message: You know what: I You know what? I Love Yep, you know what I love about what you said I Think one of the reasons we were able to excel past the market in Social is that is the same philosophy we deploy against the different social networks because we know the people right now that are consuming something on LinkedIn versus if they were on lunch in their office LinkedIn versus on lunch. Tik Tok is a different version of thems.

Yes, exactly. and that's actually what matters I mean I can tell you and I say this all the time Amazon has no idea who I am because although I have no children I've thrown probably a dozen baby showers because I throw a great baby shower I don't want babies but I throw a great baby shower. It is so confused about what I am I get garbage about not garbage I get I get marketingu yeah stuff that's garbage to to your point to me right? if I get if I get New York Giants if I get New York Giants stuff that's garbage to me I'm a jet bad you know? But but if they understand that I want something funny when I'm scrolling through Tik Tok even if it's baby stuff I might pay attention because I'm TR to funny in that moment. Yeah, but if I'm looking for toothpaste and I'm in an analytical thinking mode, it doesn't matter whether I'm 60 or I'm 20.

That's when you can deliver the efficacy stats. So what we have to understand is how people are processing at different moments and make that match. and this is I do a lot of this in Consulting This is what we do. We analyze the the whole journey for processing style and then you can do something that allows you to tailor at scale.

Um, but you know you have to. You have to let go of some assumptions and you have to kind of back up from some of the really charming. and Rich Work that gets we down into the details. Um, because it can limit your ability to scale and it can be so wrong.

It? uh, it can eliminate your ability to scale if the cost of the creative and the hours deployed against it aren't for a meaning enough scale actually impact your business. y exactly. Thank you thank you! Great talking you that was fantastic. Thank you Gary soon Take it away.

Next up, we've got one of my favorites, Kayn Mcamera in the house. She's our chief business officer. hi Kayn a little Sunny behind me I know it's good. You got the Angelic view.

We could use a little sunshine in a 30 degree. uh Northeastern Weather weather pattern I Think we're going to bring on some heat. We got some heat coming next with Mandy Rossy she's the CMO of Michaels So nice to see you! Hi I Can't believe you guys have 1300 stores and you're running all the e-commerce as well. Oh my goodness, yeah yeah you got I think Michaels is sometimes bigger than people think? Um yeah.

1300 stores? almost? Well I can't wait to listen to this one. So I'm gonna let you guys take it away. Awesome! Andria Hi there we'll get right into to it. Um, just knowing your career most recently in retail, but also Cpg analytics companies.

I'd Imagine this concept of brand forance is not a new one for you in terms of how do you balance sort of brand building with sort of the demand generation that's required at any company? But obviously the landscape has also changed dramatically, even probably in between the two last gigs you've even had. Would love to hear about kind of what have been some of the unlocks for you and where have you found success in following brand and performance activities whether it's in your current role or even in previous gigs as well. Yeah sure, I mean a lot of it has been said. Uh, very well said by those who who came before me.

Um, so much is about the consumer right to go back to what Janelle said as well. um and understanding your your consumer where they are in a journey where they are in that moment in time but then also your brand. So I'll use Michaels as an example. We are a promotional brand so promotions and performance is part of the DNA of our brand and it's what customers expect from us.

Our category is also very high low so that's different than like when I was at PNG working on like tide or Pampers it manifested in a little bit of a different way just based on what the DNA of the brand is. Um, but I always tell my team which others have said this as well like everything has to be on brand and everything has to perform. it's just about getting clear on what the Kpi is that you're optimizing towards. So for Michaels like right now we're going into our holiday season um which is probably not surprising.

So it's and actually a little bit of what Kate just said. it's knowing when do I I want to lead So Pinterest would be a great example. People are there for inspiration. We know our customer is very maximalist when it comes to the holiday season so we want to lead there with the beautiful Christmas tree and the room that's decked out and maybe a thing of like you could click here and see how to make this project.

Um and all this stuff may be on sale when they click through and they will see that but we've seen even in AB testing leading with the price point in Pinterest doesn't work because that's not what the audience is there for whereas like in Meta actually it works a lot more like a promotional ad and leading with all trees are up to 60% off this week and you can get a rewards bonus. You know if you buy between these dates is going to work a little bit better and then the tree is still beautiful in the background. but but it's a little bit of. We have the DNA of our brand which is both inspirational if you want to call that the brand stuff and very promotionally driven.

We're in retail and and it's a little bit of just knowing like which one is going to lead in which moments and how do we get that balance right for where our customer is today? which right now um I'm sure there may be others in retail out there It's a really challenging moment and we are in a very discretionary category. so you know if we talk to our customers about one. People love doing creative projects so it's a we're in a fun space because Michaels is a happy place for a customer to go. Their main barrier right now is like yeah I want to do all that stuff? but I don't have the the free cash to do it so they need the discounts they need.

The rewards offers things like that to help get over what their main sort of trial or purchase barrier is right now. Maybe other times it's the know how to do it. So it's it's kind of knowing who we're talking to and sort of where their mindset is and what that context is and just playing with the dials. Yeah, the contextual relevance of the distribution of those messages is what, really, what kind of the the strategy is? kind of in a modern world.

Speaking of contextual relevance of brand as a loyal uh customer myself I've noticed the glow up recently. um with the 50th anniversary. I Know that the brand has undergone, uh, kind of an evolution of the identity. you have a new tagline around kind of everything to create anything.

Tell us about the impetus of this refresh and this Evolution and how you see it. uh, playing into the long-term growth strategy for the brands. Yeah, so a few things. Um, yes, we turned 50 this month, which is very exciting.

Um, 50 is the new 30 by the way. Yes, good, thank you I Appreciate that on a personal basis as well. Um, you know Michaels has been on a transformation journey I Joined the brand about a year and a half ago and kind of in that same time frame, the business has transformed so we obviously throughout Co there was a a big boom in arts and crafts as people were doing more creative projects when they were at home. Um, but obviously there was a lot of Ecom transformation that went along with that.

So um, even just in the last year we've rep platformed our site, we've launched our our thirdparty Market Place business. We just launched our Maker Place business. Um, it actually came out of beta earlier this week which is our handmade Marketplace we're opening new small format Stores Um, we launched a credit card. We relaunched our Rewards program.

So there had been a lot of real transformation around the customer experience of Michaels as a whole and um, the brand had not really evolved to tell that story and even just where the consumer mindset was. our. our prior branding had been done at the end of 2019 um and really carried through Covid um which was not a promotional time for all all the reasons many of us know at this point in time duee to supply chain and other things. Um, so it worked really well for the big inspirational storytelling.

it was very influencer Centric Um but the promotional actually had gotten lost as well so we we were sort of coming out of that covid time frame with a a business that had transformed so it was time to look at The Branding as well. And one of the big things very relevant to the brand formance conversation is we need to show up as one brand and as promos had sort of started to come back late 21 into 22 Michaels had evolved to to there was like beautiful brand campaign stuff that would run and then all the promotional work literally looked like a different brand looked very Promotional and it was like these two things don't quite fit So we needed to sort of take a step back and say look we are here to serve all creative people now across this sort of broader playing field that Michaels um now has in front of us and we need it all to feel cohesive and so some of it was. um yes there's like the bigger brand messages. our campaign is all about helping people go from ideas to I Did it? Um, but even like having a design system that works really hard and can Flex up and down was one of the biggest things we needed and now especially fast forward to more AI Driven content automation Having a design system that is flexible but tight also helps to drive that consistency as we pump out a lot more content, some of which a human creates and some of which might get put together in other ways.

Love it! I'd love to click down more into Makerplace because I know that that was new news. officially sort of would love to hear more I Think what's amazing about sort of the platform is it feels very from the community. um and it feels very informed by what seems like a kind of a lot of listening you've done as an organization so would love to understand a little bit of sort of what led to the launch of that platform. And where do you see that kind of playing in the in the long-term strategy as well? Yes! so first thank you for saying that we have worked very hard to have Makeer Place Really be a place that is all about about celebrating all things handmade.

so it is our handmade Marketplace you will. You know our aspiration is you're only going to find handmade stuff there so it's not drop ship items. We sell a lot of that stuff on the Michael side but this is really for people. one who are are Michaels customers.

We know there are a lot of them who are sellers um who maybe go to craft fairs or they were selling previously on Etsy um and we wanted to give them a solution within the Michaels ecosystem to do that. And we did spend a lot of time with them to understand really what their aspirations are. We want to help them grow their business. We are doing it with significantly lower fees than the other available options no listing fees.

Um to hopefully make this a very maker friendly site where we can support um, our customers and growing their businesses. Uh, we heard from the makers that um, three quarters of them said they they felt like there was a lot of um need for a better solution in this space and then we worked with them to really design around that At the same time time we know our creative customers on the Michael side also love to buy handmade Goods Uh, so this allows us to sort of meet both the seller and buyer, piece together um and hopefully offer some really unique and handcrafted things. Um, really, that does create a community. We also offer classes and how-tos so if you're someone who's maybe you see a beautiful crocheted thing and you think that's so cool that maker might actually offer a class so you can learn how to do some of that yourself.

Um, and then it's nice for the makers because we give them more ways to earn earn. So it's not just making the goods you sell, but you can teach a class and if you fill it up, you're going to make more money or you have how to um, you know, sort of affiliate list. So if you do a class and then you go and buy things from that list from Michaels then they actually get some reward on that as well. So yeah, we're excited.

Literally came out of beta like a day ago so it it's still very early days but um we've gotten lots of of great feedback. Uh, we already have over 10,000 stores and you know we're like a day and obviously in Beta. We signed some people up mainly through Word of Mouth Um so we're really excited to see where it goes. I'm excited with Halloween behind us.

it's officially Christmas in my family so I'm headed into hosting and gifting mindset. so I'm excited to check it out. Um but appreciate the time I know we're at time but thank you so much it's so exciting all momentum and appreciate your time. Awesome Thanks bye Thanks you guys! that was fantastic! Thank you Kalen All right next up we have Christina We've got some exciting news.

um her her her name is going to come up as as something that she's not because she just got married so we like to call Christina X around here and that's never gonna change. Never some superpowers. um but Christina is no longer blankin ship she is now Mara Yes I know I need a hard launch strategy? Yeah exactly it's happening today. New brand new brand refresh.

Excellent! Well we're really excited to bring Jason Brock Um up for a dialogue around all of his fantastic work um, specifically and performance and how he drives that for St Jude which is phenomenal organization. Um, we've had the luxury of working with Jason for quite some time, so thank you so much for joining today and looking forward to this conversation you guys! Thanks for having me and congratulations Thank you! Yeah I Forgot to mention that right? Surprise Yeah! hard launch the name next marketing for the now. Um, thank you thank you so much for joining us! Um I've known you for a few years. Such an honor to work with you guys! We'll get a chance to talk about the mission and all the amazing things you guys are up to.

I Would love if you could just start with a little bit of context on your background as a performance marketer and just give us a sense for what you're up to at St Jude Well I kind of consider this my third leg of my career if you will. At my early days I was in financial services the early days of online banking so really started from a digital product perspective and there's where I kind of develop a passion for product user EXP experience and consumer behavior and then I made a pretty big leap I Made a leap into the marketing agency world. What began as a small digital startup just grew to be part of one of the large holding companies and we focused on performance, media and analytics for Fortune 1,000 organizations. And that's a season where we have the shared passion of love and for Numbers really grew right.

We talk about numbers a lot, love doing that, love solving big problems for clients. but honestly, there was something that was still missing for me I Love the work, love the client, but was really craving a more tangible way to connect my day-to-day with a bigger purpose and that Journey led me here. It led me here to the fundraising warus Organization for St Jude And this Mission has just been incredible. Huge Global impact and allows me to just leverage that love of data and media and apply it to something much bigger.

Yeah, I mean um, even being in an agency, it's like the highlight of my career getting to apply what we do to such an amazing cause. Um, we don't usually get that honor on this scale too. Um, but St Jude is such an incredible example of brand forance because the entire objective of marketing is Raising donations. It's very Dr focused in a sense, but you could really argue that that TV strategy that you guys have had for many years and are really famous for.

Um, these twom minute spots explaining patient stories and capturing really the impact while still collecting donations with phone number QR code that was Brand Forance all along for all these years. So you guys being a Pioneer in brand forance digitally isn't all that surprising. but I would love to hear how you guys have, um, changed that approach and what that looks like for you Now yeah, that that fundraising you mentioned. It's an awesome resp responsibility.

The reality is that takes over2 billion dollars a year to fund the operations of St Jude and the science and research and patient care there. So yeah, started with I'd say those Drtv two-minute spots you mentioned but also direct mail and radiothon those are early examples of brand informance for us. So we know that consumer Behavior changes have evolved over time, but the foundation still holds true. Um, when I think pre-pandemic I Also, think about YouTube We were early adopters of YouTube's action-based campaigns and that's really where we started to move the needle from thinking about YouTube as a performance driver and not just a brand building platform.

So for over two years our top ad on YouTube take a guess how long it was, Take a guess. 15 seconds, five minutes and 13 seconds, right? So powerful. content always wins Now Yeah, in the era of tiktock ification of everything right as we think about attention span so the speed of content consumption, overwhelming challenge of audience attention. So maybe we should jump into Tik Tok and kind of some of our brand Forance life there.

Yeah, I mean you guys are experts in that space and we've learned just as much from your team about how to do Brand Forance on Tik Tok as I Hope we've been able to help you guys with, but um, would love to hear what it's unlocked for you because I know at an organization that's um, really, really focused on making sure that that bottom line stays consistent every year. Being Innovative in a platform like Tik Tok probably took a lot, so would love to hear a little bit more about the effort behind the scenes to get to that point and all the things that it has unlocked for you now that you have a really well oiled machine. Well, I'd say embracing Brand Forance was honestly out of necessity, right? Most of us marketers we've heard the phrase don't make ads make Tik Toks Well, the data plays that out. Um, but really, the most surprising thing for me on that platform was how fast that creative fatigues right? The platform like Tik Tok it moves at the speed of culture so you practically can't have a sit it and forget it model.

So for us that meant we had to have fresh organic content. and we had to constantly take that organic content that had traction and we had to spark it. And it was out of necessity as much as anything. Yeah, but it also probably was an enormous shift not only in the performance marketing side, what you needed to facilitate, but on the creative side and the amount of output that you needed to generate.

And then, um, probably the level of collaboration that you have with your brand counterparts And performance as brand Formance came together. How did you guys as an organization bring together brand and performance? Yeah. I Think For a lot of marketing organizations, they set up brand and performance almost as a competing system, and we know that can't be the case. I Think for us, there's there's really three important things we did.

The first thing we actually do is for every employee, they have an annual brand goal every employee. so brand health is Paramount and all we do, it stays in our DNA And then operationally, we brought brand advertising and performance media together. One team optimized under a single media mix so that makes ease of optimization in terms of budgets and allocation. So depending on audience attention or donation intent, we can easily move.

And then the last thing I'd say and this is the hardest one Maybe for all of us is what I'll call our 180 degree effect. Many marketers start with a creative approach, then how do we push that across every media channel in market and then report on which audiences respond. We got to flip that to be audience L We got to start with what are the audiences in mind? Okay, where are those audiences? Let's understand where they are and then produce contextually relevant content based on that audience and that platform. And it's easy to say that it's hard to operationalize that.

Yes, yeah, we have a phrase here. Modern comms planning and I don't know what you guys call it, but it is truly flipping the entire model on its head and once you see it, you really can't unsee it right? And I'm sure it took a while for everybody at St Jude to see it. Um, how did you really spend your time building that foundation for everybody? Well I think it's it's a Journey right? We're we're not in complete in that I Think a lot of it is. Uh, incrementality testing is important I Think As marketers, we also talk a lot about demand creation versus demand capture and we think about how do you balance that which implies 5050.

The reality is, it's not 5050 depending on the marketplace and your business objectives. Um, a lot of direct consumer Brands Focus on I Think yeah. Look, we we managed to clone him in different forms I Think Oh dear oh dear. Well, if I can just round out with one quick thing, we got to put Brand Forance in action here.

and so if anybody heard the message, appreciated it, um, felt resonance with the mission of St Jude would really appreciate any donations you can go to Stjude.org Um, it's Q4 Every single dollar counts. And as Jason said, Every single um aspect of the organization runs based off donations from Marketing Department, patient Care. No family or child ever faces a bill because of the humanity of people like who are on this call. So any amount um really helps and would appreciate any donations I think Jason would be proud of you Christina for that one always s yeah we love the work is so important that they do and it's um yeah it's such an honor.

oh we got we got some some people that are screaming in the background. Addal fans back there I guess Oh my goodness. All right well let's go fa Save Jason hope everything's okay on his side Yeah thank you thank you so much and congratulations Christina Thank you See you fantastic IC All right next up we have Chris Anthony from Gallery Media Group hey Chris how you doing hi Andre how are you good? You're always bringing up the the power on the on the the tail end of the show. Thanks for joining All right we! we have a great conversation to round things out.

So we've got Patrick O'Keefe Who joins us from Elf Beauty and Patrick what don't you do is All I'm gonna ask I mean this list of everything from Paid Media Social Med Media Influencer Marketing PR And it's not just for one brand, but the full portfolio at Elf I'm exhausted just even talking about it. Well it's good to see you. Nice to see you I'll let you guys take it away. all right Thanks Andrea Patrick So good to see you! likewise.

how are you Chris I'm good I'm excited for this huge obviously fan of the brand and all the work you guys do. So I'm excited we're ending the show with some good insights from you. Love it! Um, the topic today is Brand Forance. How do you as like a organization? just think about branding and performance.

Overall, from a philosophy standpoint, we love our community. Everything we do is centered around our community. We listen, we learn, we are a brand of the People by the people and for the people. So at the end of every day we read all of our comments.

our CMO Corey Marotto is in there all the time and we are connecting based on what we're we're seeing and we're reviewing it and making action against it. I Love it! The power of comments on social is is pretty wild and so amazing. You guys use that to inform so much of the work. Um, there's so much fun stuff to get through.

um with what you guys are doing. But one thing I think comes to mind is you know how do you guys think about culture and talent and creators? You have so many I think examples of wins I mean Jennifer Kulage I Feel like you guys really struck gold? Um with that partnership, but talk a little bit about just creators and talent and culture and what has that done in terms of building the brand It they have to be authentic to the brand first. they have to love it First at the end of the at the end of the day if we if we think about what we did with Jennifer coolage um she Lov the brand her social person was using the product and Jennifer asked him what the product was and she's like let's play with it let's try it She tried it, she loved it and that was the start of that beautiful relationship and then of course her Access Hollywood Cameo when when the reporter asked her hey you know what what do you want your next role to be and she said I want to be a dolphin of course dolphin skin was trending on Tik Tok so connecting the dots really helped us Propel that commercial and into our next campaign that we just launched recently with dirty pillows. She is an an incredible incredible talent and we are so grateful to have her as part of our family as we continue to build um the brand and what I love even more is the comments that people our community going back to the community.

What they say is they we we love her Anything she puts out there we will buy is truly what they say and then the other comments they make is this Is what marketing should be. This is what advertising should be. People having fun in the space, just having leaning into a cultural moment and finding your way in I love that and I think to your point, so many people areer talk about authenticity and it can just be a word we throw around. but I feel like the way you just describe that partnership is just definitely the definition of that.

So congrats I Love that is continue of the work and and watching that Journey Go on. Um we talked a lot about platforms today and obviously they're a big core of how you guys talk to your community. I think of Elf as really sort of writing the playbook for Tech Tik Tok I think you guys were really early on on that platform and um got tons of press and were really looked at as a thought leader in this space and I think so many people then started taking cues and building off that success. How do you guys think about Tik Tok continually.

you know in the world today Ren what do you think is next of using that platform? Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, no. I love that question I Tik Tok obviously is is there's a lot of there are lot many platforms that's I Want to say that too because I think they're all equally important. They all serve a different Purpose with Tik Tok Specifically, you know the Eyes, Lips face Song Early on in our journey was really what propelled us into the billion what we call the Billionaires Club From a views perspective, we did a partnership with Gamers Got Talent As we entered into the gaming space, Gen generated a lot more AB billion a billion more views for us and I and I love our new collaboration that right now we did with Manuel Tereso is we're leaning in in, um, into a community that really is about empowering women and we just created another Ohos Laos Cara Song Eyes, Lips Face Spanish And what's super cool about that that partnership is that you know Tik Tok was another place that we're leaning in to help expand.

It's finding new audiences. It's leaning in where you find the right Trend or the right comment that could trigger something. We have an insights team and every week we sit down and we sit around a table and we talk about what we're learning. We see something, we say something, and then we do something and I think that's really powerful for companies that really take action when you are listening to a community of people that really help to shape culture.

Yeah, and and to your point, just the insights are so powerful and the fact you guys are putting those in practice is is really important and really commendable. in the vein of of brand you know standing for something I think is You know. obviously so important, especially in you know, the younger generation and really every generation especially in the world we are in today. Talk a little about purpose.

What what does purpose mean for the brand and to Elf and to you? Wow It's everything we we always we have a framework and which we really lean into. It's we are bold disruptors with a kind heart. We disrupt Norms We shape culture and we connect communities. That is a framework that we lean into every project that we do or every campaign.

Anytime we sit in a room we always ask the question and it always has to lean. come back to a sense of purpose. When I think about, you know we're one of only four out of 4,200 publicly traded companies that have 2third women and and onethird diverse. That is incredible thing to to put out there and it makes me so proud to be part of a company that really honors and celebrates women and diversity and more and and they put action behind it.

I Also when I think about what we did with Billy Jean King I mean she is really um a true Testament about something that she stood for and she believed around equal pay for equal play what she did with Battle of the Sexes and it it was really an honor to sit to meet her A and to be A for her to be a part of really helping to shape what we're trying to do. to really Empower Young women in the In in the World of Sports I Love that. Yeah, just constantly. You guys keep on.

You know, spotting new interesting collaborations. it continually just gets better and better. You talked about this really quickly. Um, you know when we talk about the platform space Tik Tok Um, and you mentioned gaming a little bit that seems to be you know a space that's continually you know, helping reach new audiences.

Different types of engagements talk a little about that. Overall as a category for you guys. Yeah I I I Love it and it's it's just it. We we started a channel on Twitch it's called Lfu.

Um, what we learned is that that a lot of excuse me women were being bullied on the platform and you know we were like, well that's that's not cool. We were a brand of really celebrating and empowering women and they're getting you know, abused on the channel. So we we partnered with Loser Fruit who's the number two women gamer in in this space. she's based out of Australia who and she is so elf and she's got a.

She is a bold disruptor with a kind heart for sure and we created a channel called U and it's basically about you know, celebrating women, giving women a safe space, giving them a place to really do makeup, hang out, and just really connect And on a deeper level. And and really celebrate. You know what they'd love to do which is gaming? Yeah, I love that. I Mean it definitely tracks back to your whole point around.

you know, being authentic and purpose-driven but doing it in a space that you know was interesting at the same time. So so great. Um what? Last question really for you? and I think you touched upon this a little bit in some of the other parts. But another thing I think you guys are continually known for is just is collaborations that some of the the things you guys have done with other brands that have been super disruptive.

What have you learned from there? um that's I think gonna continually take you guys into next year with exciting um continuations on that front. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, No. listen it all.

it's it's all about about connecting dots and we we like I said we read the comments, we see something and then we say something and then we do something and we lean in and it's about an Insight If I think about Megan Trainer The Weather Channel why would we do something with Megan Trainer Eight out of 10 women change their beauty Behavior because of because of the weather. Wow, that's a powerful Insight she was also trending on Tik Tok So again, connecting the dots. She wanted to be a weather woman right? Wow, It was like the perfect storm and so of course for us we wanted to really find a way that made sense that's authentic, that creates a little bit of of humor and and have some fun along the way. And she she did an amazing job of really finding a way to really take our one of our products and make it another another really big.

Big Brand on Tik Tok It's awesome! So so much great work that you guys continue to do! Congratulations um on everything and I Can't wait to see what happens in 24 which is around the corner! I'm sure there'll be a million other exciting things to talk to you guys about um and for you guys to share with the world. So congrat! Oh, there's more coming for sure! I I am sure! Thanks Chris Appreciate thank you so much Uh for joining us today. Thanks you guys for closing us out! Thank you! We got another episode that's upcoming. uh in just I think it's like 13 days.

Uh, we're g to be focusing on how we unlock a growth mindset and we've got some exciting Brands uh that include Stuart Whitesman WNBA Vans CR H&R Block Sopi and we have one other mystery brand that's coming soon, so we hope to see you very very soon on that episode. and until then, please take care of yourselves! Thanks so much for joining Marking for the.