Look for everybody in the crowd. We're in this moment right now, 98 of nft projects that are in the market right now are gon na go to zero or close to it like we're in a very unique time. This is very similar to internet public stocks. In 1999, where the internet was right, but we all got ahead of ourselves and we put 40 billion valuations on companies that hadn't even sold anything on the internet yet and it crashed in march and april of 2000.

That's what's happening in the nft world. Right now. You've got your perspective. I just want to be happy.

Don't you want to be happy as normal? I did a lot of research, although michael, i know you very well, i'm going to start with gary vee uh, just my like the things i've been listening to is books on audible, um and there's very little content out there right, not a lot of content hard To find um serial entrepreneur, tech investor, social media extravaganza, he predicted the influencer economy and then has driven it he's the author of five best sellers uh, which i've been listening to most recently 12.5, which is just fantastic. He turned the book publishing industry upside down when he connected the launch of it with uh with nfts garyvee's are just killing it. It's amazing. Thank you, michael i'm, going to start with a quote from sbj just so we have a little bit of perspective.

Few people over the past 14 months - this was a in january of this year, have done more to rethink the traditional ways of doing business and aggressively changing the status quo than michael rubin, seemingly not just making money for fanatics, but also the partners. And, of course, the leagues you are named as the most influential person in sports this year by sbj you're, a regular on cnbc uh, you've grown fanatics scratch it out. 18 billion to 27 billion announced yesterday leaked yesterday and your focus on evolving the leading e-commerce company to the leading sports digital company. So, let's get started, you guys are so impactful.

I love it. I want to talk about how you two got started. Um during well got started with your candy digital and that concept. So during the pandemic, you co-founded and collaborated on the all-in challenge, which raised over 60 million dollars for charity by auctioning off experiences with celebrities.

How did working together on in lead to candy, digital okay? So you know from my perspective, gary is always someone who's like 17 steps ahead, and you know this could be the first time i'm really giving them uh public credit for it, but the whole trading card idea that fanatics you know has built a pretty big business Around came from gary hitting me over the head about 17 000 times saying um, you need to be in trading cards, it's the next big asset class. This is going to be gigantic and when we did the all-in challenge together, guy was talking to me about kind of you know where the nft market could head so gary's, a guy who i always value that i have in my kind of orbit of seeing trends. First, recognizing big opportunities and um. You know i knew gary pretty well going into the challenge, but the the 24 7 mentality that he brought toward doing whatever it took to you know, raise much money for people with food and security was amazing, and it just made me love him even that much More and returned obviously doing something good for the world into creating new business together.

You know, i think one of the unique things about michael is there's very few people who have the combo of sizzle and steak when you have charisma or energy or creativity. A lot of times, the operational execution part doesn't come along with that and vice versa, and there are unique individuals that come along that can really combine the two and and the same thing. For me, i had an incredible uh point of view on who michael was but really having somebody actually keep up with me, 24 hours a day felt so unique, and i was like okay, this guy's on a on a different plane. All and you know we were navigating our own businesses and our own family situations in coven and listen.

Co-Founding is being incredibly kind, michael, called me and already had it baked and said: hey do you want to help me with this, and i just remember that phone call because it was very early in the process and things were still very scary, and i was like The humanity to try to help others, while navigating the things he had to do really really struck me and and definitely changed our relationship. I love that and i i love your comment about the sizzle with the operations because, michael you have a long-standing relationship with mlb and so as you as you were conceiving of candy digital um, how which was announced in june 21 how uh? How? How do you think first, how that how that relationship with mlb is changing the way we think of baseball? Well, first, i think you know relationships are everything and you know in business. You need to have both great strategy, um and great relationships to make that strategy happen. So you know we work with today close to a thousand sports properties globally - and you know baseball is an incredible partnership and i think you know what we saw was an amazing.

You know, i think what gary saw and what gary helped me see. Quite honestly was an amazing um. You know long-term opportunity, but also one that would go through a lot of changes, and so, when we spoke to baseball, the conversation was really about. How do we build this? The right way for the fan, long term, and i think you know the nft market really started going around the crypto community and what you know gary helped me understand, and i think what we understood early was.

It was not only about the crypto community, but it's really about how do we get billions of sports fans to engage with nfts and you know really engage with with with incredible content that all the sports properties possess long term and so baseball really want to build. The right way and what was terrific about the way we started the business they said. Look we want to do this with you, make sure you take care of our fan, make sure you build this the right way, long term. They were actually less worried about money.

Knowing that they built this the right way, the dollars would follow. The most important thing for them was building up for the fan, long term, and so gary, with all of your expertise, how did you help accelerate what what michael was thinking about? What fanatics was thinking about with candy digital, any specific examples? Yeah, i mean look for everybody in the crowd. We're in this moment right now, 98 percent of nft projects that are in the market right now are going to go to zero or close to it. Like we're in a very unique time, this is very similar to internet public stocks in 1999, where the internet was right, but we all got ahead of ourselves and we put 40 billion dollar valuations on companies that hadn't even sold anything on the internet yet and it Crashed in march and april of 2000, that's what's happening in the nft world right now, there's so much money being thrown around so much greed, so much short-term behavior that almost every project that we see out there, even if it's already done 10-20 million dollars in sales, Is incredibly vulnerable because the ip creator, the the founders of these projects, are genuinely not building it with the long tail in mind, and so you know whether it was the way we thought about sweet futures, which is one of the things we do in candy, which Was you know with nil, changing the landscape right of college sports? We were able to really put together opportunities that for the fan that was buying the nft.

I think one thing that is completely being missed right now is: in 20 years people are going to care. What the rookie nft is when's, the first time this person showed up on the blockchain no different than when was the first time that somebody showed up on a piece of cardboard or the first time they showed up in a comic book and so a lot of What we've done at candy is give a lot of strategies to how do we put people that we think will be long-term superstars on the blockchain first and how do we structure the rarities? What is the supply and demand? I mean the reality. Is it's the only thing that i'm paying attention to when i work with the team at candy, which is? Is this strategically set up to be a long-term win that creates secondary behaviors and value for the original buyers? And i think that it's all classic collectible supply and demand strategies of that nature, and so literally every launch. You know i want to go back to what he just said because um, i think gary's 100 right um to make a prediction and gary's often uh.

If you look at his predictions years later, um they're, often very accurate to say 98 of the nft projects are going to go to zero. It's you know, i've been saying something very similar, which is there's going to be a giant crash in this market coming, and i actually love that gary's talking about, because you also need to look at just like the law of like logic, and you know today you Have so much new content coming every day and um, you know to me: um, that's why you know candy what we've thought about is: how do we build this? The right way, the long, the long term the right way and how do we make sure that we build great content for for sports fans and great products that are going to increase in value for sports fans. And if you don't, i actually think uh we're actually hurting the the the different sports properties we work with we're hurting fans and so um, but what gary said you know? I think it's going to be true. So you know today when you look out the market, so many people think this is just easy money.

It's just going to go up and i think you're going to find a lot of people. It's just going to be like the internet crash that gary talked about in 1999 or the financial crash that we went through in 2008. It's coming into the nft market, there's no way with the amount of new content. That's coming on that this can go straight up.

It's and i'm sorry to jump in, but i think the big thing for this crowd is understanding that that's when it gets interesting right because again, if you look like, i think, what's going to happen, is it's going to crash and the media is going to have A field day told you told you told you told you you can read unlimited articles in the summer of 2000, saying we told you, the internet was a fad, we told you the reality is the consumer. Blockchain. Is the single biggest technology shift since the internet itself? It is that profound, every ticket to every sporting event in a decade is going to be an nft. The technology is too obvious, but the x, the macro, is unbelievable.

The micro executions right now are cliche gold rush, and what we've generally seen in fanatics by the way is on the way up. You build a lot of things organically on the way down, you find ways to um, add m a into kind of an accelerated building. Look, we went through this, even you know in covert we did so many things to you know accelerate our business because there were so many companies that weren't prepared to kind of live through cove and i think in every crash, um there's so many opportunities for you Know good strong companies to have the right long-term vision, the most important thing is you get the strategy right? If you get the strategy right um, you know, then you can think more thoughtfully about the timing and right now there are a lot of things that don't make sense, but they don't make sense. You know you can be strategically right with your business plan, but that doesn't mean you act until you know things kind of come your way.

So two great points there. Let's talk about that strategy and i think i want to highlight gary what you did with v. Friends and which has been massively successful for those of you who don't know right now, there was one that was auctioned for as high as 1.2 million uh and the lowest current value of it is of one is 30k. So what did you do to bring branding and generate over 91 million dollars in the first 90 days? And then i do want to come back to blockchain, but i want to start with some of those strategies.

Well, the thing that is most fascinating to me about the blockchain and one and a lot of my friends reached out to me when i went so hard and they're like man. I've watched you for 15 years leave so much money on the table to preserve your reputation. Why are you ruining it now, basically, is what they were saying: you're doing something so high risk, and i'm and i said to them said you don't understand the blockchain. It's actually the reverse.

If you are the creator of a project, an nft project, you're, actually more in control than anything that has ever happened before. Let me explain with v friends. First, i use the utility of the smart contract to create a three-year promise. Contract of a conference called vcon that i'm doing at u.s bank stadium in minnesota in may, which you know it's it's a profound lineup of every of the who's who michael's even coming, and i don't think he's ever been to minnesota, and so, like you know, it's You know it is cold there.

I am aware you thank you, um, the you know, and so first i think people are not using the utility aspect of nfts enough right now, right now, we're in the art and collectible phase no different than the internet 94. We were in the information age right, the internet's awesome for information. The internet was awesome for information. It was also going to do so many more things in our society.

The blockchain right now is on art and collectibles, but it's a contract, and so i did a three-year conference. I did a lot of access tokens um, where zooms like information things, that people actually value besides the collectible, but the part that i was referring to earlier, and this is why i wanted to be in business. You know candy's, really, the only other major thing i'm really involved in is that i knew how michael thought about the consumer. Let me just paint the picture for everybody: who's hesitant to do an nft project because they actually are good people and they fear that the value goes down with with candy with me.

Friends, if god forbid the market crashes and some you know it's one thing for all the people that spent two thousand dollars for it last may and are selling it for 30, 40. 70. 100. 000.

They did great, but what about the guy or girl who bought it today for 40, 000 and the market goes to 8 000.. For me, because it's on the blockchain, i can provide more value for that person. You're the central bank you're, the country you're in control. So i just you know: i've been telling a lot of my friends who i think have not the best behavior in mind who are going to be like.

Well, they made it. You know they bought it. They took a risk, i'm like it, works a little bit different you're in control of that economy and your reputation is completely tied in so i think for the people that have good intent and have resources and are smart for me, i take a lot of usd Off the table with my project and put it in one place just for the rainy day, so i can deploy that capital back to the people that own v friends and i think the best projects will do that and just for the audience you use the word Utility, yes, and that means that there's something of value that you're creating that is going with the nft, so access or the sporting ticket is the ticket but the, but the utility is getting into the venue, but god willing. Somebody drops 100 points that night and and ties will chamberlain that becomes an instant asset and even when you, when you, when you take that to candy and gary, has had huge influence to the products that are created at candy.

You know i sat in meeting with gary a few months ago, and you know in two seconds gary comes up with an idea: okay, we're going to do you know a new collection of rookie products and in these rookie products we're gon na have um. You know face times available with you know all the 101s or you know and look in sports. You have the ability to create and really i think in many places you have the ability to create great uh, experiential value and that's what gary's talking about. I think we have a great opportunity to do that as well, and i think you know gary's point he's always thinking about how to create something.

That's got real value versus. There are a lot of people. Just like you know. They're kind of you know fast and loose and trying to make a quick buck they're.

Not thinking about you know how does this play long term and certainly for a company like fanatics? It's you know, you know getting to be a decent sized company. You know we, you know, we think about you know, most importantly, how do we do the right thing for the sports fan long term? We want to have billions of fans, local thenx, as a beloved company. Everything that we do needs to create a great experience for them. If it doesn't, it actually hurts our brand and so and we don't do everything right by the way we screw things up every day, but you know we think about most importantly, like how do we have billions of fans that look at fanatics as a beloved company Where they get most of their digital products from us, and so you know with candy, we need to create, you know not only a great product, but we need to figure out all the things we can do to enhance that product and you have to think long Term for all the people that are deeper into this space, you go into the discords where these communities live with these projects every day, everyone's like what about the fourth place, make the floor price go up.

Everyone is such a day trader right now. I see a lot of founders succumbing to the energy of their discord. Their discord is in a community. Their discord are day traders who want to make a quick dollar, and you know, i think, what i'm really proud of with be friends and with candy is listen.

We care deeply about what everybody who's holding an nft thinks, but like a parent, we're willing to do the short-term unpopular for the long-term win, so i'm gon na switch off of uh nft's, cryptos and blockchain. I wan na talk about analytics and i'm gon na start with you um gary. I said i've been listening to your book on audio and obviously analytics is core to what we do um. Well, you started your the book just and i thought it was amazing.

I shared it with my children and my wife, but you said um facts about gratitude to help us feel so. 728 million people in the world do not have drinking water 60 of people in the world. Don't have a toilet that manages human waste, and so data is big in what you do. You're helping all of us think like that, from an analytical perspective, can you share how you and your team over the last decade have used social content and constantly evolve your strategy and maybe one specific example that will resonate for people? You know it's funny, obviously being in the epicenter.

At this event, i have historically been a much more passionate qual data guy than quant data guy, but you use data a lot. I use data every second right and i think that you know for me even going back to launching an e-commerce swine business in 1996. I remember making talk about making mistakes. I was innovating.

Oh, you know: shopping cart, abandonment and all these things just naturally, because i just wanted people to buy the wine that went on to become the industry standard practices. I wish i built some sas businesses around my behavior. I could have done well, but you know i think you're doing okay. Well, hang in, i think the reality is.

Is that um? I look at it every day. I mean, for example, i'll give you an example of how we think about in the last decade. One of the things that i'm very proud of is, i believe that i have day traded the public's attention extremely well over the last decade um. I feel that on a daily basis, my number one objective before i fill that bucket, with whatever i'm passionate about, is where are all of their eyes and ears every second, and that comes through analytics.

For me, my my north star, being everyone's attention, allows me three and a half years ago to tell everybody in my companies and every business that i'm associated with that. We have to get very serious about tick, tock, it's not because i'm guessing it's because the math is very clear. I can see that people are moving their time spent the account growth, the comment count and then, more importantly, when i layer qualitative around the quant and see the affinity is very high, and i see that people are going all in on the interest graph, not just The social graph and then i'm ready to kind of move and so on a daily basis. I'm curious about the organic reach and the cost of media on linkedin youtube, facebook, twitter, instagram, snapchat, spotify and any other platform that will amass hundreds of millions of users on it and then every individual execution in it.

You know it doing great on instagram has required analytical movement from the picture gets the most organic reach to the video gets the most organic reach to now. It's a reels that you put in feed, not just as a real and so on a daily basis. It is the framework of everything, that's awesome, all right, so i'm gon na talk analytics with you uh and you you have been in it um, you champion the 80 million customers that you have i'm sure it's growing by the second um. What do you really know about them, michael yeah and yeah yeah? Well, first, i think the thing that actually took us like i always like to look back and see what we got right and wrong the thing that was actually a great eye-opening experience for us is: we spent you know kind of nearly a decade building our first Business, which was really the merchandise business we caught finance commerce, we woke up and we realized we had a huge structural advantage to building the leading digital sports platform when we think about how to create all these different digital sports businesses, um, really our brand and our Database were the most two important assets that we had and our database we we know so much about each of our fans.

We probably have today, between 50 and 60 attributes on average per fan. We can really use that to to really improve the experience and now, when you think about it, that we're going from our first business of merchandise and now we're adding trading cards and nfts and and online sports betting and over time media. The ability to uh really use data to really personalize the experience and make the experience for each digital spritz fan. So much better is a great opportunity for us i'd say it's probably, you know the biggest advantage we have and there's really not.

If you really think about it, there's really not another company that wakes up and goes to bed obsessed with how to improve the digital sports fan, experience and um. You know, i think data is really at the core of everything that we do uh and obviously look you can't even build a merchandise business with that you know. Look our merchandise business. This year is four and a half billion dollars, the original business we started in um, and you can't build that without data being quote everything we do, but when you think about now how we, you know, build this digital sports platform, you know the the again, the Biggest structural advantage, we have is the database and the ability to use that, to you know, help improve the experience for each fans.

Ultimately, it gives us a reduced marketing cost as well. We go out and we now acquire. You know a fan in um, the commerce business and that fans gon na you know, buy trading cards from us and and buy empties from us and and do online sports betting with us and do really each of the different businesses that we have. So it's it's a huge advantage of one that keeps getting better every day when i think one of the things that i have learned from watching you is the vertical integration that you do and so you've gone down which you've done on the commerce side and now You're going broad across right and taking that, which is you know, obviously amazing and the 50 to 60 attributes is going to grow because you have these other businesses.

So it's it's really brilliant. So obviously, yesterday it was announced 27 billion valuation and you raised 1.5. What are the 1.5 billion just so we're clear? What are some of the key things that you're thinking about in using that investment for yeah? You know you know for us. First of all, we don't really.

You know we're thinking about how to build. You know that you know a company, that's beloved by billions of sports fans globally and ultimately you know, i think you know evaluation just follows the business results. You know, i think you know for us. You know, one thing is very unique about us.

Is i've been screaming the way gary screams about things uh and i think people eventually, you know. Listen i've been screaming for years that you need growth with profits, and so, as a company uh we've been one, that's been focused on. You know growing quickly, doing great things for the sports fan, but also making money the entire way, and so for us all. The money we raise is really from uh.

It's really to be used from a m a perspective to go out and buy pieces to kind of build our digital sports platform more quickly. So you know this year alone we acquire tops um the trading card company, which is you know, kind of the most well-known brand of trading cards to really enable a trading card strategy to pull forward four years. We just acquired mitchell ness a few weeks ago, and so we like, when we have a strategy if we can buy pieces to kind of move more quickly, and so that's what we use all the capital that we raised for and we're going to look as a Company this year we were, you know, you know profitable last year, generate real free cash flow. We'll do it again this year in a in a greater extent, but all that money gets invested either in how do we enhance the fan experience globally or how do we? You know kind of buy capabilities to do the same thing.

I love it all right, we're going to switch a little bit to personal brand. You guys both have pretty big personal brands, gary you're, the master of it so uh. How do you assess michael's brand? That's definitely pretty screwed up for sure. Where is it and gary's responsible for everything i've ever done wrong for sure? Where is he strong and where can he improve? I i think michael's greatest strength is his self-deprecation.

I i think, if you look at his content, there's a lot to make fun of me about when he shares like videos of him playing basketball um that just sets the world on fire. There's there's! Well, you should tell me when the big idea you just pitched me on just about 15 minutes ago - i i told michael i i so i'm a big believer that um nostalgia is incredibly underpriced and so for a long time, especially with the emergence of betting uh. I've long thought that there was an opportunity for an ott to come out called the prop network, where you would establish these uh environments. I said to michael back stage, i said, imagine how many people would tune into a pay-per-view of magic, johnson versus larry bird, and there was betting dynamics on top of it.

Well, that's how you start. You said i know i'm about to go. Okay. I think we need to be honest, um, and i said you know, but the big one that i want to see.

Is you and dj khaled one on one? I think we can do. I think we can do five million pay-per-view um, and so i i think what michael you know for to be such a titan of business for him to not take himself serious, to show the brighter side of him he's a massive inspiration for a lot of fathers Out there, with daughters with his content, this is stuff that people don't talk about. They don't see my my. What i do for a living is basically read messages back to data, i'm basically a human anthropologist and do qual data all day, long constantly, even on the flight here very early, i'm reading direct messages and comments and stuff.

So i think what he does extremely well. We obviously see him with the the crafts and the meek, mills and all that stuff. That is so aspirational. But i think if you look carefully between the self-deprecating nature of like hey yeah, i'm good at these things, but i'm not as great at these things and just being an incredible dad.

You see a big movement of dads tapping into their. You know being dads of girls and there's a really great movement on that. I think he's doing a phenomenal job on that. What he's doing poorly is a lot of things: um.

26 minutes. Okay, um! You know a couple things i think you know our a lot of our friendship comes of the building blocks over the last decade. Sage knows like every time i would come across michael anywhere, i'm like michael. You got to start making content.

He hesitated on it in the same way that many people here have not bought their first nft. Yet that's just a massive mistake, whether you think it's a fad or not to disregard an entire movement is a mistake like you've got to taste it uh. Even if you lose a thousand bucks, it's worth it. That's the education.

You've got to taste things when they're innovating, and so i think, broadening some of the platforms that he puts out his content because he's gotten comfortable with instagram, but we need him to really expand his horizons. Gary, who do you think, would win in the one-on-one between khaled and i i think khalid i agree. I agree. I think he he would body you up, he would use his.

You know he would just get you down. He still might miss a three-footer he's. You guys are both atrocious, i'm gon na when i leave her. I'm gon na call him and get the challenge on it's going to be for a private competition, but i'm going to do it.

I think i feel inspired our next all-in challenge should be those things where the all the proceeds go to a non-profit, because i think people would really enjoy that and i really look you look at the big three. You look at some of these celebrity boxing matches. I think there's a lot of evolution still to be done in sports and i think we're kind of like having a laugh here, but i think there's a lot of opportunity in people love competition yeah. You know like people, love competition and people fall in love with names and a lot of times when these athletes retire or these people in pop culture.

You know meek mill, making that shot the other day right yeah i mean, like that's stuff, that people are fairly interested in. We should be honest. I actually took the video hoping he was going to miss the rim i know and that he actually went in was actually really impressive. He was really lucky.

I posted that. I was really good. It posed a bad outcome, not a good outcome, but somehow uh the basketball gods were with him. I i mean i love the banter.

So much and i mean that's pretty good advice. I enjoy your content. I think i personally like the dancing the most uh, but you have a good uh, some good coaching before that competition um. So if you guys are thinking about the influence that you could have and potentially um, you know raising more funds as your brand.

Your brand is amazing, obviously, and you understand how to do it great advice. What do you think, michael as your brand continues to to rise in your awareness? What are the areas that you're most passionate about in terms of continuing to influence yeah? So so the first thing i just want to go back for a second, because i think this is kind of a good. Just everyone thinks differently gary consistently. I love to have people around me that i learn and grow from it's like the big thing i always say like i barely.

I think people know this about my story, but i barely met at high school. I didn't go to college, so all of my learning goes from getting um. You know just you know, a diverse group of friends that you know you can learn from and we all learn from each other. You know sitting in the front rows robert kraft, who you know i consider to be my younger and more less responsible brother, and you know i learned i learned from robert every day and gary i learned from you, but gary's always been he's, always been um.

You know ahead of me in a lot of things. He talked to me about trading cards years before he got in the business. He talked to me about nmt's. Before we got into business for years.

He harassed me to go on social media. Like literally harassed me, i mean there wasn't a meeting where he didn't scream me about. Why i'm an idiot you need to be on social media. It took me probably four or five years later than what he told me to do.

But the interesting thing is one thing i believe i actually really don't and people could say this is, but i'm just giving it to you straight because that's my personality, i don't think about building my brand. I just do what's comfortable what feels right to me and to me that's the test. I need to put things through, so there are a lot of things that that people may say: hey. You should do this, but it just doesn't feel natural.

It doesn't feel authentic and what the things that i post are things that i want to promote. What we're doing with the reformal criminal justice organization, we're, building - or i want to you - know, promote something that that you know dara mori is doing with the sixers or that you know we're doing with the basketball team. I want to promote something we're doing at fanatics, or i want to make fun of myself, because actually i do like making fun of myself and it's very easy to do in those moments every day to do that with her. You know i want to make fun of my daughter and just have fun with her.

So, like i really put you know, i kind of the things i share with things that really feel authentic to me and i don't like to ever push the envelope and i sometimes think for me, less is more um. I also i look at a guy like gary and one of things you know i love so much about him. Is he's so motivational to everybody in his energy. Is it it just he he? He pulls everyone with him and that's a great thing, and you know i think you know we have a lot of similar traits, we're also very different.

You know, i kind of you know i motivate people in a different way. He motivates people a different way, but i think you know what's so incredible about what gary's doing is he's got. You know tens of millions of you know people that look at him and you know who who who learn growing and really, most importantly, are motivated and he's. You know showing tens of millions of people how they can do more.

Do better - and i think that's a great impact to have for me when i think about you, know the question you really asked which i'm not getting to, which is you know, kind of you know, what's the influence we want to have going forward? Look, i am, i wake up and go to bed obsessed with. How do i build you know one of the most incredible companies in the world. I think you know it took me a decade to kind of figure it out it's kind of cool. When you say look, we focused on building this.

You know you know pretty respectable merchandise business over the first 10 years, but then we realized we had a much bigger opportunity that there literally are billions of sports fans that we can become their beloved brand, where they do everything digitally with us. And so for me, you know i am 100 locked into doing that and anything i do really. You know i want to support that initiative and that you know kind of drive and and that opportunity - and you know everything else around - it's just things that maybe i'm passionate about. Personally i mean you both are very inspiring.

I mean i've mentioned 12 and a half multiple times it. I mean it really. Is it's really it's a great it's a great, listen or read, but i've been linking to it so um. So, thank you.

Is he reading himself in the in the in the book? Yeah at what speed is it like a three-minute listing because he does the whole book? I don't know what well what i like about it is that he'll say: okay, i'm going to go off script because i wrote this three months ago. I mean it's right. This goes back to day trading attention right, like things change every day, yeah, and so i love doing the audio book because i do get to do the remix yeah, it's it's it's great, so uh we're gon na switch to gambling now uh michael you mentioned during The super bowl that you could you believe you can be the number one player in the space within 10 years, um and you're, currently not in that business. So that's a bold statement.

What do you think are your competitive advantages over, say, draftkings and fanduel or caesars, or that way yeah so first off um. You know i actually, as i get older and that's happening very quickly. You know i'm i'm trying to be. You know kind of you know you try to want to be bold internally and maybe a little less bold externally, although you want things to rally people around so for me, what i've always had is a really big vision, and then you can like will things to Happen and if there's like the number one thing about my personalities, people always tell me this can't be done.

This won't happen. I think that's like completely like, i think, come up with a really big dream. Come up with a really big aspiration. Put a stake in the ground just like figure out how you're gon na do it, and that has worked for me time after time after time and by the way it's i'm not doing on, intellect i'm not doing it on on books.

I'm definitely not doing. Looks. I'm definitely not doing on physical physique, i'm doing it on just like drive, and so you know to me when you look at you know, fanatics and building this digital sports platform. You look and say today: we've built, you know a nice and fast growing business in our original.

You know model, you know, finance commerce and we've now just come, and you know we're now kind of building the trading card business pretty aggressively. Now the nft business and you look and say: does online sports betting fit into the digital sports platform of fanatics. I think 100 of people look at that and say yes, this is like a perfect strategic fit. Then you got to look and kind of assess the market and um.

You know right now, the markets, you know it's, you know it's a huge long-term opportunity, but the market's not making as much sense. You know in the near term, and i've been saying that pretty non-stop for last last year, so from my perspective, i think it's a perfect fit in our platform long term, i think we've got huge structural advantages because we probably have the most digitally oriented. You know sports commerce brand and we have this massive database, which gives us great structural advantages, and then we have um. You know we have the you know financial wherewithal to you know kind of go after things in an aggressive basis.

So you know i you know. I actually didn't mean for that statement to come out publicly. I said it to somebody kind of in passing, but i do believe we will be the number one player in the business in a decade and i believe we'll do it through um, smart and aggressive um. Uh organic growth and the structural advantages that we have fanatics and then you know m a will.

You know you know, as we've done in each of our businesses, we've generally had an aggressive, organic plan and then we've layered mergers and acquisitions. On top of it to find businesses that fit well, we'll do the same thing here um, and so this isn't a business by the way. Today i got to tell you something: i mean the amount of money, that's being invested or lost. If you just put in simple english today is like um, you know it's, you know, there's money being lit on fire if we keep it real uh and that's and by the way we said that a year ago i went to our board a year ago and Said look, there's going to be a massive space, long term um and i said in the near term.

You know i'm not quite understanding the economics of this business. I generally try to make money on things that we do it's a crazy concept, but you know when i look at companies i like them to have a path to profitability and like them to make money, and i think and look there. There are some great operators in this business, jason robins who runs draftkings. I love him.

I don't like him he's a really good friend of mine. He's a great entrepreneur and you know maybe he's got. You know just even more courage than i do because you know he's investing like you know crazy amounts of money, but i think look. He will be a big winner.

Long term fanduel is a great company. The offline casinos are good companies. I just think this is a perfect fit into our platform and so um. You know, i think, we'll be very successful a long time at it.

Well, i mean at least from what i've heard. The cost of acquisition uh for gambling is obviously very very high and you have acquired a lot of them. We require a customer for 19 bucks in the commerce business and you know average cost cost to acquire a customer in in in uh. You know online support spends days 500 on a good day right, so you know i'd much.

Rather, you know i'd much rather look at all this, the different places i can wire customers, then cross-sell them into online sports betting, then go out and spend 500 plus. You know and have a multi-year payback that you know in a highly promotional environment. Well and so we're talking about this and you brought up draftkings. So thanks for the the very uh good segue, because you actually gary do quite a bit with uh draftkings um, a prop betting show uh.

So would love your perspectives. Do you recommend everyone to bet on the jets in the show every week uh not this season, but with four picks in the top 38 and with top five free agent money and with a remarkable draft class left who's, a yes or no question? The answer is, i'm more optimistic how much money you've lost people on the jets in the past five or ten years, uh happening in boston with robert here. Let's just get this out in the open, i mean: have you literally cost your tens of millions of of people who really depend on you? Have you cost them hundreds of millions of dollars in the jets? I have not because if you watch props and drops, i've actually decided to bet against the jets the majority of this year because it could be when it comes to business, some unemotional as a fan, i'm very emotional um. So i think i've made people money just had to get that out all right so yeah, so you get back out you're, giving them a hard time on the jets.

Okay, we get it um. You know what's happening with that, though, you have to understand why it's so remarkable to be a jets fan, because you learned to lose no, because i think you know it's very similar to the framework that you just said for someone not to think that they're gon Na be the biggest player in the business that they're, going after in a decade means they've lost before they've started like. Why? Wouldn't you it's one thing for the fans in the crowd to think something? What do you think? I think one of the great things about having real ambition, like the amount of super bowls, i'm going to win when i buy the jets, are going to come directly from jokes like this on stage these are chips on shoulders chips on shoulders matter, guys when i Say get one thing out there? I will bet on you for everything other than when you suppose over the crafts and the patriots, sorry buddy. I am going to win super bowls when i buy the jets and i'm going to play this clip and i'm going to end it with you, michael rubin.

Well, we should have a good wager that goes before. One of us is uh not on this planet. We'll see, listen, modern technology like i'm, i've got 60 more years of damage. That's fair! All right! Well, let's get back to draftkings.

So why did you want to get involved? There's a bet on draftkings right now. Will gary win multiple super balls? All right! That's how you should launch your platform perfect. Will you promote it for me, 100, okay, great okay? Why did you get i'm going to just draftkings hired vape cat, my my my agency vaynermedia back to like the way we both think and probably why we have friendship is when i started vaynermedia 13 years ago. I was coming from the wine retail business and i looked at madison avenue, and i said my god, these guys and girls have this all wrong.

They are completely obsessed with potential reach and just delusion of where the internet is about to take us, and so i saw an opportunity to create a business and over the last 13 years, we've built the largest independent agency in the world, and that is just facts And so draftkings rightly decided to hire vaynermedia for marketing, and you know, and then you know to to michael's point that crew, those founders they're just good guys. You know, like jason, really knows his stuff and kalish and i really hit it off because he loves to collect stuff. And i you know we started talking through the business about collecting cards and things that nature. And then he got very excited about the nft space and we just decided to do a podcast okay.

So then, you know based on everything in your experiences growing uh properties. What is your advice to jason or amy howe at fanduel on how to think about fanatics? Coming into this space, they should be concerned because the the reality is anytime. You have a like. I have the most confidence that i'm going to build the best xyz always but to be delirious and not understand.

The competitive landscape is also a a dangerous strategy, and so i think i believe that what michael is doing is the preview to what many great operators are going to do over the next 20 years, because the way technology is today, it makes all the sense in The world to go vertical and horizontal if you are capable so and one thing i've thrown there's. I actually think it's a really big space, so there actually is room for lots of great companies like draftkings and fanduel. That's not me just being politically correct. I really feel that way and jason, and i talk about it all the time like this, this a really big space.

What we're looking forward to is leveraging the structural advantages that we have at fanatics to kind of build. You know kind of a more integrated and you know kind of best experience for the family. You know what i mean. It's really global.

You don't have to be as remarkable as jason to hear we're acquiring customers at 12 bucks over here and we're going to bring them over. Here i mean i don't you know. Some things are just uncomfortably obvious, but this isn't about the strategy. It's.

Why? Michael? I mean i put out every strategy i have in the world publicly for free the second. I come up with it. The reason do i do. That is because most people can't execute it right.

So, by the way - and that takes courage - and it's funny - we come from the same mold from that perspective, i often say what i'm going to do and i'm not worried about it, because i think we're uniquely positioned to do it and by the way, sometimes that's Wrong and you get your foot in your mouth and you say god i wish i would have kept my mouth shut. Absolutely. You know, 99 of the time i'm willing to tell people here's exactly what we're going to do and here's our script and you know we feel based on the unique you know position of fanatics. You know we can do this better for the sports fan and so other people don't have that you know kind of inherent advantages that we have well, i you know so um i mean really insightful.

Thank you very much. I think we were talking about the jets for a second, no, it's a lifelong dream of yours, so you know you were kind enough to give michael some advice on his brand michael. You have owned the sixers for 11 years now. What are the key lessons? I mean because i think it's going to happen.

This guy is a force of nature uh. What are the key lessons that you learned that you want to pass on to gary if, if he actually goes on to own the jets? Well, first, i'm one of um. You know i'm one of and one of several owners in the group led by josh harris and david blitzer, a great partnership, and we have been at it now for 11 years. I'd say the biggest thing that i think a lot of really smart um new owners get wrong.

Is they try to be overly involved versus picking the right people to lead the team we're fortunate enough to you know this conference is started by you and dower and we're fortunate enough to have daryl leading our basketball organization. I think you know that's. Why we're a much better basketball team this year? And you know, i think, to me um what i've always taken, the same philosophy that i had in business and applied to sports, which is get the best freaking people on the planet and then get out of the way. Okay and only be involved in the biggest decision and daryl will say, he'll call me he'll tell me about some something about some player.

I've never heard over something i'm like daryl. I don't care, don't even. Why are you telling me this because i only care about the big things? What do i care about? I care about having daryl leading basketball, i care about having doc coach, i care about having ted brown as a ceo and i care about. I mean you know: ownership stay out of the way other than on the biggest and most strategic decisions.

I think that's how you win and that's actually not what a lot of new owners do. I and, and i see a lot of new owners - you know they're super smart like gary, so they get in there. They want to be in the draft room and they want to be. You know, dictating everything that happens, and you know what they do.

They generally screw it up um, so you know i'd say if you're actually fortunate enough one day to um, you know own the jets. I'd say. The biggest thing you want to do is pick the best people be supportive of them and not you know, you know to try to do their jobs for them, because it never works and the history of people trying to do the jobs of the people that you Know they should be getting the best people to do it. It never works out.

My my strategy is when you buy the team. I'm gon na i'm gon na be honest, be honest right now, i'm gon na be the digital, the head coach and the starting wide receiver perfect. No, i think i honestly would you listen yeah, i mean by the way, i'm actually more comfortable in that zone as well. Obviously you know when you're as passionate you know, i haven't missed the play of the new york jets.

Game live no dvr since 1982., wow. So this is like foundational for me. I was born in the former soviet union. I would argue that jets.

Football was my kind of like american moment. It's a very big part of my life, so the discipline required to do exactly what michael's saying, which is 100. The right blueprint i promised my brother aj who's 11 years younger than me and is going to absolutely be on this journey with me. I said: listen, i'm going to do all that everything he just said, but i said, but the one thing i'm gon na need is: i'm still gon na need to be able to pick the seventh round pick i'm gon na i'm keeping that yeah.

Now the the one thing i will tell you is: is um sports needs owners like gary, because that's the next generation and for me, i'm actually going to a different place in my life. People ask me all the time i actually i'm 100 focused on fanatics. I will not be you know you know, for me, my only involvement is the sixers. I will not be doing anything incremental um for probably the next several decades, if it ever again in my life, i'm 100 locked into making fanatics.

You know the most incredible digital sports platform in the world. I don't want any distractions from that um, but i actually think sports does need great owners. I think you know if every league could have you know incredible owners. You know across the board it's going to make it better for the fan it's going to make it better for the the players there's going to be more money involved, there's going to be better product on the field on the court on the ice.

So you know i love that gary wants to you, know own a football team or own the jets in this case, and you know, i think that you know the the sports leagues can't have more. You can't have enough great owners. Well, so i think what you're saying is the jets need an owner? No, i'm not saying that at all um, i'm just i'm just saying i'm just saying that that i think gary would be a good owner of a sports team all right.